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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Giuoco Piano C54, with 7.Nbd2 (Read 498 times)
ReneDescartes
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Re: Giuoco Piano C54, with 7.Nbd2
Reply #10 - 10/29/18 at 21:52:45
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Yeah I've had some games like that too, and it's not pleasant.
« Last Edit: 10/30/18 at 03:20:05 by ReneDescartes »  
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Stigma
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Re: Giuoco Piano C54, with 7.Nbd2
Reply #9 - 10/29/18 at 20:44:42
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It's not just a hypothetical - IQP positions are not something I play very well, and I've had some misplayed IQP middlegames through the years where I ran out of initiative. From then on it's usually gritty defence to try to hang on for half a point - not very pleasant.

That's why I felt it important to point out that the pawn structure in itself really is a disadvantage. Saying White's pawn structure is better in the middlegame/center greatly understates the very real danger to the side with the IQP and the need to carefully maintain or convert compensating factors like activity, attacking chances or opportunities to exchange off the isolated pawn. (This goes with the whole imbalances-based way of thinking about strategy - I can't help being influenced by my early study of Silman's books in this regard).
  

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ReneDescartes
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Re: Giuoco Piano C54, with 7.Nbd2
Reply #8 - 10/29/18 at 17:17:07
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I guess it's academic what we say here, as I think we don't disagree about any strategic reality.  If you strip off the pieces, white's structure is certainly worse; but then you'd be in the endgame! And no structure confers an advantage independent of its relation to the pieces. But how is the ideal center of the e4-d4 duo itself useful in the middlegame? You can post, for example, your knights in front of it and bishops and rooks behind it, advance it to open lines and remove defenders, use your maneuvering space behind it to switch targets, etc. The IQP in the middlegame gives you a lesser version of all this because of White's central superiority, i.e. because of the pawn structure. That's all I meant.

Now, in order to imagine that Black has caught up with White in terms of piece activity, I have to imagine those White knight outposts and maneuvering threats somehow matched by Black, and that means that black has overcome the space advantage and influence of the center and square-for-square has more piece activity than White, ceteris paribus. Then, of course, with the middlegame advantage of the better center neutralized by hypothesis, the IQP becomes a potential object of attack rather than a means of attack.

Perhaps such a middlegame feature can't sensibly be evaluated in isolation (so to speak).
« Last Edit: 10/29/18 at 20:20:41 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Giuoco Piano C54, with 7.Nbd2
Reply #7 - 10/29/18 at 12:45:08
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ReneDescartes wrote on 10/28/18 at 23:04:57:
White's pawn structure is generally *better* in the middlegame (the center), and without a material concession!

I can't agree with this. The side with an IQP has the worse pawn structure in both the middlegame and the endgame. It just so happens that sensible players only accept this disadvantage in cases where they get some compensating advantage, usually in piece activity and attacking chances.

Imagine a situation where White has an IQP but Black has caught up in piece activity/initiative/threats. Surely everybody agrees that means White is worse?
  

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ReneDescartes
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Re: Giuoco Piano C54, with 7.Nbd2
Reply #6 - 10/28/18 at 23:04:57
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That may be redefining "gambit" a bit as any activity obtained for something else. White's pawn structure is generally *better* in the middlegame (the center), and without a material concession! Also, an IQP is certainly not always lost in the endgame, and how reliably could you or your your oponent convert one clean pawn, anyway?

It's a great way to experience the miracle of piece activity. I don't think you'll get massacred this way; on the contrary, I think tactics will tend to go more your way than in the Colle.
  
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Re: Giuoco Piano C54, with 7.Nbd2
Reply #5 - 10/25/18 at 14:50:35
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IQP is a gambit of pawn structure. The underlying principles are the same as a true gambit.
  
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Re: Giuoco Piano C54, with 7.Nbd2
Reply #4 - 10/25/18 at 14:00:44
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The idea of the book is to get IQP positions, and learn from them. That's makes ...d5 the best move for the readers of the book.

But I don't know if playing gambits is something you should learn to handle before learning to play IQP.
  
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Re: Giuoco Piano C54, with 7.Nbd2
Reply #3 - 10/24/18 at 22:50:36
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I wonder about the idea that 7...Nxe4 is second-best, given that playing as in e.g. Nakamura-Giri apparently equalizes.
  
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Re: Giuoco Piano C54, with 7.Nbd2
Reply #2 - 10/24/18 at 21:32:59
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Solid advice from Jupp53. Also Erik Kislik had the good advice to play practice games against the computer, where you take the black side. Then the computer will show you where white's play is. If you find a training partner as Jupp53 suggested, it would be good if you could agree to play the same variation with both colors.

Really, if you are convinced that your opponent will take the pawn, then this becomes the best opening choice you could make. Actually I don't know the theory of this line, but in general if you can predict your opponent will make a second-best move then an opening is worth playing. Provided of course that you have studied it. When you reach a level where all your opponents are playing 7...d5, then perhaps it will be time to look for another line.
  
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Jupp53
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Re: Giuoco Piano C54, with 7.Nbd2
Reply #1 - 10/24/18 at 16:24:38
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This is a good line to learn how to attack and losing anxiety about giving a pawn for compensation. You have the book. Study game 7 and find a training partner for 5 or 10 minutes game in your club or online.
  

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Giuoco Piano C54, with 7.Nbd2
10/24/18 at 16:16:17
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I'm trying to switch to open games from Colle. One book recommended is "A simple chess opening repertoire for white" by Sam Collins and many of he's recommendations lead to a IQP.

In the Italian game, following line is recommended:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4 7. Nbd2
The best move is 7...d5 leading to IQP.

But on my level probably most of my opponents will grab the pawn with 7...Nxe4, and white is a pawn down.  Undecided

A safer line is the non-gambit 7.Bd2.

The gambit line is a big step from my "safe" Colle setup, and I'm not sure I want to go that way.

Even so, maybe the gambit line is more educational than the other line.

Suggestions?
  
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