Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Reverse Dragon (Read 9605 times)
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 716
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #27 - 02/10/22 at 15:04:03
Post Tools
Chess Publishing archives are almost always a good resource. For example I count 16 annotated games after the moves:

1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 d5 5. cd5 Nd5 6. Bg2 Nb6 7. O-O Be7 8. d3 O-O.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 716
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #26 - 02/10/22 at 14:51:00
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 02/10/22 at 08:40:04:
A non-reversed (Classical Dragon) example is Nepomniachtchi-Krylov 2010


I found it. It looks like a good example even though the colors are reversed. Does it matter?

Krylov seems to be a common name among Russian chess players. The player of the black pieces was GM Mikhail Krylov.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 716
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #25 - 02/10/22 at 14:26:06
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 02/10/22 at 00:53:06:
FWIW the Kuljasevic database is on a double discount right now, supposed to end on the 10th! It's both one of the "Databases of the Month" and there's a sitewide Grand Prix discount (that soon expires). These two stack up.


Thanks. I didn't pick-up on the second discount. However it is still $33.11. That could be worth it if you think it worthwhile to spend time listening to the video, in addition to downloading the PGN.

I agree that Kuljasevic does good work.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4904
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #24 - 02/10/22 at 08:40:04
Post Tools
A non-reversed (Classical Dragon) example is Nepomniachtchi-Krylov 2010, which was cited in ECO-B2 (2021) as equal.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4904
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #23 - 02/10/22 at 01:45:22
Post Tools
By the way, Kuljasevic's main line 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 d5 5. cd Nxd5 6. Bg2 Nb6 7. 0-0 Be7 8. d3 0-0 9. Be3 Re8 10. Rc1 Bf8 11. Ne4 Nd4 ("when he gets a central outpost on d4") occurred in a game Videcki-Dorfman 1989, which Dorfman used as an example of the creation and exploitation of an outpost.  (There was a thread not long ago about Dorfman's use of that term.)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3265
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #22 - 02/10/22 at 00:53:06
Post Tools
FWIW the Kuljasevic database is on a double discount right now, supposed to end on the 10th! It's both one of the "Databases of the Month" and there's a sitewide Grand Prix discount (that soon expires). These two stack up.

I'm on the fence myself but will probably get it. Kuljasevic seems to care about quality in all the work he puts out. I also recently bought a few other resources on 1.c4 e5, so it looks like I'm sticking with the "King's English" as Black for now. I might as well make sure I have options within this complex. Like FreeRepublic I'm a bit worried about playing into the Sicilian a tempo down, but my general preference for unbalanced positions everywhere carries more weight.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 716
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #21 - 02/09/22 at 14:33:06
Post Tools
So, no clouds on the horizon? I may dig into this again.

I think Black has several playable lines that commence with 1c4 e5. Reasoning away, one might consider a reversed Sicilian to be risky, and a reversed open Sicilian to be riskier still. Black has alternatives in a reversed Rosolimo, reversed Grand Prix, reversed Closed Sicilian, all of which keep the game more closed minimizing white's extra tempo. However, I think the intrinsic merits of ...d5 justifies the move. Experience and theory likewise support ...d5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #20 - 02/09/22 at 00:28:40
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 02/04/22 at 16:49:58:
GM Kuljasevic recommends 1c4 e5 for black at Modern-Chess. He provides pgn, which I want, and video, which I do not want. The entire package is too pricey for me. However, the free sample material got me thinking.

I've looked at and played 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 d5 5. cxd5 Nxd5 6. Bg2 Nb6 7. O-O Be7 8. d3 O-O before and am thinking of picking it up again. Kuljasevic presents a free sample game.

In the past, I concluded that black has a reasonable game with adequate space and development, but that white can probe in various ways on the queen side. Consequently black has to be alert. The play is intricate.

I checked on game statistics, in total and over the last 5 years, for a quick impression. Black does great. So far, so good. Then I restricted my search to very strong players, and white has done very well! The overall statistics may be more indicative of what players at my level might expect. The statistics at the higher levels might be more indicative of "ultimate" merit.

With a quick and superficial review, StockFish likes black's game. Also Kuljasevic recommends this for black.

Is anyone aware of games or a variation that are discouraging for black?


The important thing is not what Stockfish likes, but why.  Wink
« Last Edit: 02/09/22 at 23:16:22 by TopNotch »  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 716
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #19 - 02/04/22 at 16:49:58
Post Tools
GM Kuljasevic recommends 1c4 e5 for black at Modern-Chess. He provides pgn, which I want, and video, which I do not want. The entire package is too pricey for me. However, the free sample material got me thinking.

I've looked at and played 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 d5 5. cxd5 Nxd5 6. Bg2 Nb6 7. O-O Be7 8. d3 O-O before and am thinking of picking it up again. Kuljasevic presents a free sample game.

In the past, I concluded that black has a reasonable game with adequate space and development, but that white can probe in various ways on the queen side. Consequently black has to be alert. The play is intricate.

I checked on game statistics, in total and over the last 5 years, for a quick impression. Black does great. So far, so good. Then I restricted my search to very strong players, and white has done very well! The overall statistics may be more indicative of what players at my level might expect. The statistics at the higher levels might be more indicative of "ultimate" merit.

With a quick and superficial review, StockFish likes black's game. Also Kuljasevic recommends this for black.

Is anyone aware of games or a variation that are discouraging for black?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4904
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #18 - 01/23/22 at 17:13:09
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 01/23/22 at 02:28:42:
Could you please show the moves?

I meant 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. g3 d5 4. cd Nxd5 5. Bg2 Nb6 6. e3 (or via 2. g3).  The first time I saw it, I thought something like, "What?  Can White really play like that?".  But I thought I might have come across Neiksans saying he didn't want to allow it.

FreeRepublic wrote on 01/23/22 at 02:28:42:
I think I may have a glimmer of another answer. In the four knights line, he recommends:
1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 d5 5. cd5 Nd5 6. Bg2 Bc5
6...Nb6 is much more common. I think he does not want a sequence where he has to play ...Nb6.

Ah yes.  (David Cummings wrote in Chess Publishing a couple of months ago that 6...Bc5 "arguably represents the modern mainline of the Reversed Dragon.")
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 716
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #17 - 01/23/22 at 02:28:42
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 01/22/22 at 19:27:31:
I think it has to do with Neiksans preferring to avoid the line with 6. e3 and Nge2.


Could you please show the moves?

I think I may have a glimmer of another answer. In the four knights line, he recommends:
1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 d5 5. cd5 Nd5 6. Bg2 Bc5
6...Nb6 is much more common. I think he does not want a sequence where he has to play ...Nb6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4904
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #16 - 01/22/22 at 19:27:31
Post Tools
I think it has to do with Neiksans preferring to avoid the line with 6. e3 and Nge2.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 716
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #15 - 01/22/22 at 16:21:29
Post Tools
GM Neiksans has a course on Chessable:  Lifetime Repertoire: Reversed Sicilian. There seems to be a lot there, even in the free Short and Sweet version. I have the Short and Sweet version, but have not really gone over it yet.

One of his lines chooses ...Be6 over ...Nb6. 1c4 e5 2d3 Nf6 3Nf3 Nc6 4g3 d5 5cxd Nxd5 6Bg7 Be7 70-0 0-0 8Nc3 Be6
.

Neiksans analyzes the reversed Dragon after 1c4 e5 2Nc3 Nf6 3Nf3 Nc6 4g3 and only now 4...d5.

Against 1c4 e5 2g3, he plays 2...c6. Against 1c4 e5 2Nc3 Nf6 3g3 he plays 3...Bb4.

I realize alternative move orders may give black unique opportunities, but is it necessary? Can't black still play for a reversed Classical Dragon line?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 716
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #14 - 03/19/21 at 16:31:22
Post Tools
RdC wrote on 11/22/18 at 10:35:03:
In the common sequence, 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. g3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. Bg2 Nb6 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. 0-0, almost everyone recently continued with 7. .. Be7.

Why is the idea of 7. .. Be6 not more popular?


7...Be6 8d4!
This is much stronger than against 7...Be7.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10756
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #13 - 11/23/18 at 18:40:40
Post Tools
One specific line that might work for Black is 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.g3 d5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.Bg2 Nb6 7.d3 f6 8.O-O Be6 9.a3 (iso 9.Be3) Qd7 10.b4/10.Re1 O-O-O.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo