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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Veresov vs Pirc transpositions for a KID player (Read 779 times)
tipau
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Re: Veresov vs Pirc transpositions for a KID player
Reply #13 - 12/07/18 at 16:11:31
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Just to add that 3...c5 against the Veresov was also covered very well by GM Gustafsson in a video series on Chess24 as well. In usual style he called the line the "very soft", in case anyone wondered about his opinion of the opening  Grin
  

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Re: Veresov vs Pirc transpositions for a KID player
Reply #12 - 12/06/18 at 21:28:13
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If the Avrukh tome is old I guess Cox (2005) is prehistory.  Wink
  

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mn
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Re: Veresov vs Pirc transpositions for a KID player
Reply #11 - 12/06/18 at 20:34:47
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It was in the good ol Avrukh tome as well, IIRC.
  
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Re: Veresov vs Pirc transpositions for a KID player
Reply #10 - 12/06/18 at 20:09:03
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Bancrates wrote on 12/06/18 at 12:29:06:
Think I'm going to stick the with 3...c5 approach, and just learn the antidote there. In my game I followed some well trodden path into a risky double-edged line but it looks like safe and strong alternatives were available, and White can't prove much unless Black lets him.

That's the principled approach; learn some theory and play critical chess!

Apart from ChessPublishing, this 3...c5 line was covered from Black's perspective in Chessexplained's Benko repertoire and John Cox' Dealing with d4 Deviations (though I haven't checked either of them against recent developments).

I also think I saw a game with 3...c5 analyzed on brabo's blog; bound to be serious analysis. But I don't have time to dig up the link right now.
  

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Re: Veresov vs Pirc transpositions for a KID player
Reply #9 - 12/06/18 at 12:29:06
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Not really fussed vs the Barry Attack stuff, know roughly what I'm doing there, but wanted to avoid Pirc transpositions if at all possible since that's a lot of extra repertoire work.

Think I'm going to stick the with 3...c5 approach, and just learn the antidote there. In my game I followed some well trodden path into a risky double-edged line but it looks like safe and strong alternatives were available, and White can't prove much unless Black lets him.
  

Give no quarter. Expect none in return. Punish mistakes ruthlessly. Seek simplicity when ahead. Seek complications when behind. Respect every opponent. Fear none.
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Re: Veresov vs Pirc transpositions for a KID player
Reply #8 - 12/05/18 at 17:45:10
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I agree with the point that ...d5 set-ups aren't terribly typical of the KID. I just figured it might be worth pointing out that if you're used to having your Bishop on g7, this is an option, and quite decent too IMO.
mn wrote on 12/05/18 at 00:39:23:
although this is more Grunfeld-y than a KID.


On 4 Nf3 maybe it's more accurate to start with 4...c6, and only play ...g6 once White commits to the slow system with e2-e3.
  
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Re: Veresov vs Pirc transpositions for a KID player
Reply #7 - 12/05/18 at 08:27:14
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If 4. Cf3 and White tries to do a Dd2/0-0-0 setup it looks like transposes into the Barry Attack since the attack seems to me the only plan in such a position.

If 4. e3 g6 this looks more like a Grünfeld closed with e3 and with a clumsy Cc3. The KID and Grünfeld might look similar, but the play is really different in both openings and their setups. KID players usually avoid any ...d5 when their opponent does not play ball and chooses Torre and London, in which case some books even have approaches for KID players and a different one for Grünfeld players due to both being so different.

As a KID player, I remember not wanting to transpose to Grünfeld setups because the lack of typical ...e5 and sometimes ...c5 breaks were not the same type of play in KID setups. Now as a Grünfeld player I do not want to play with ...d6 setup and only ...d5 when fianchetto against non main lines, because they are quite different  Cheesy

To me a Pirc/KID player would prefer staying within the dark squared complex, so I would avoid the ...d5 line against Weresow altogethers and just transpose in any case to Pirc.
  
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Re: Veresov vs Pirc transpositions for a KID player
Reply #6 - 12/05/18 at 07:21:36
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4 Nf3 is the most frequent move in that position, while 4 e3 is not uncommon either (...g6 sytems can be a decent reply to both of these). I was under the impression that 4 f3 was meant to be dubious, while 4 Qd3 h6 5 Bh4 c6! is basically nothing for White.
  
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Re: Veresov vs Pirc transpositions for a KID player
Reply #5 - 12/05/18 at 06:55:44
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mn wrote on 12/05/18 at 00:39:23:
Against slow set-ups after 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nc3 d5 3 Bg5 Nbd7, you can at least put your Bishop on g7, although this is more Grunfeld-y than a KID.


If I recall correctly, if White is playing slowly or positionally in the Weresow, then I think that she is either playing the wrong opening or in some strange way  Cheesy

In the main line after 3. Ag5 Cbd7, unless theory has skifted, is quite sharp, where White plays like a Fantasy against the Caro-Kann, i.e. with f3 and e4 and Black has to counter with ...e5 and bringing the queen out early. Certainly not enough time to fianchetto like the Pirc.

If you refer to some 150-attack like setup with Cc3/Dd2/0-0-0/h4/Ah6 where White does not play e4, then that would transpose to the Barry Attack, a similar opening to Weresow but not the same.

As a Pirc player myselfs as well as former KID player, I would just save time and headache by avoiding both Weresow and Barry and just transpose to Pirc with 2...g6 and 3...d6. Any later e4 is a Pirc, and an e3 is a very strange anti-KID system that tries to combine a Smsylow-style system but without c4 since the Cc3 is clumsy there. Seem simple to me.
  
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Re: Veresov vs Pirc transpositions for a KID player
Reply #4 - 12/05/18 at 00:39:23
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Against slow set-ups after 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nc3 d5 3 Bg5 Nbd7, you can at least put your Bishop on g7, although this is more Grunfeld-y than a KID.
  
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Re: Veresov vs Pirc transpositions for a KID player
Reply #3 - 12/05/18 at 00:09:01
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The moment you play 2...d5 there's obviously not much of a KID flavor anymore.

The Schmid Benoni (Benoni without c4) is somewhat closer in style to the KID, so you could try 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 c5 aiming for that. But be sure to look at the lines a bit first; many believe White is simply better there.

I find it interesting, but in practice I tend to lose Schmid Benoni positions from both sides of the board, so I have a lot to learn there...  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Veresov vs Pirc transpositions for a KID player
Reply #2 - 12/04/18 at 13:13:55
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Guess I probably didn't make myself clear - not necessarily against playing something sharp/theory, if 3...c5 really is the best thing to go for, but should I just give up on a KID sort of set-up entirely and stick with 3...c5, and learn it, or go to 3...Nbd7, or is there a way i can keep a KID flavour whilst avoiding the Pirc transposition.
  

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Re: Veresov vs Pirc transpositions for a KID player
Reply #1 - 12/04/18 at 12:49:22
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Isn't it the case that the sharp answer always has some theory behind it? 3...Nbd7 was recommended by Gallagher (1996) Beating the Anti-King's Indians.
  
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Veresov vs Pirc transpositions for a KID player
12/04/18 at 11:59:22
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As a KID but not Pirc player, I've always been a little stumped by 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3!?

I recently allowed the Veresov in a rapid game vs an IM but after plopping for the 2...d5 3.Bg5 c5!? line, quickly ended up in an extremely sharp position which turned out to have some theory behind it, which I didn't know, and got absolutely crushed out of the opening.

Unfortunately I'm not too keen on allowing 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.e4 either as a I don't really know much about the Pirc.

I don't mind facing the Barry Attack etc but is there any way I can retain the "KID-ness" of my setup vs 2.Nc3!? or would I be best served by just learning a solid set-up with 3...Nbd7.
  

Give no quarter. Expect none in return. Punish mistakes ruthlessly. Seek simplicity when ahead. Seek complications when behind. Respect every opponent. Fear none.
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