Forgive me if I've missed the thread already existing, but I couldn't find one on this. So, here it is.
I've just finished posting on the Yahoo! chess message boards about a question on this opening. I've always been a KG player so I've never really looked into the theory of it, but it was extremely interesting looking at some lines, especially without a computer or any knowledge of the theory. I dont know what theory's conclusion of the 8...Ncb4 lines are, but I found white to be winning in almost every line after 9.a3, and found that 9.d4 and 9.Qe4 were viable, and indeed felt 9.Qe4! seemed as strong as 9.a3, if not more so.

If people want I can copy the analysis from my file on here, otherwise I can direct you over to Yahoo's "Chess Openings" thread (I'm sure everyone here will be able to find it), but I felt it would be interesting to start a discussion on whether black really has a hope of holding his position if he plays 5...Nxd5. And also to see people tear my analysis limb from limb  ;)

Regards,
Craig  ;D

I'll tell ya right now why the Fried Liver is almost never seen anymore...

Nxd5 lines have become so rare, not because of the Fried Liver but because of Morphy and Fischer's favorite, the Lolli attack.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4!  

This move saves Nxf7 for later, say after exd4 O-O Be7 Nxf7! wins.  There is no need to sac the knight right away...black can hold his own in the Fried Liver.  In the Lolli though...not really.  Masters don't play Nxd5 anymore because of the Lolli, so why not invest some research into it?

Also, one more subtlety I thought I'd bring up...if you dread the Na5 lines like I do, save Ng5 for another move.  I prefer 4.d4! and will play a Perreux variation if it doesn't go back into a Lolli.  This move order effectively eliminates the Na5 line.  E.g., 4.d4 exd4 5.Ng5!

Someone on here posted this site already, but:
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~goeller/urusov/perreux/index.html



NeX iRae

P.S. Get off Yahoo!  That site's worthless...check out USCL, FICS, ICC just to name a few.  Yahoo is just filled with cheaters and people who don't know how to play...ugh...

But at the amateur level, Nxd5 is seen all too often - a guy at my club plays the fried liver and gets to play it 4 times a season at the 1500 level I'd reckon, and has never failed to win with it.

I dont play either line, a friend and decent chessplayer on Yahoo's message boards asked me to do some analysis on it for him. 2.f4!! cuts out all the hassle, except for when I throw in the occasional Belgrade gambit.

I only go on yahoo as I have many strong friends who hang out there, I rarely play a serious game online anymore due to my poor excuse for an ISP. I do occasionally go on playchess, but rarely these days. Admittedly Yahoo as a playing environment is pretty poor, but it's still the best place to go to just chat while paying chess.

Worth mentioning that NM Dan Heisman did some very extensive computer analysis of the fried liver and lolli also there is a book called like 100 busts or something like that by watson I believe where he shows that the fried liver is a forced draw for black and I believe he also thinks the same of the lolli, the line in the fried liver is far more convincing, but both are worth looking into if you plan on playing/offering it.  Curiously I stopped playing Ng5 altogether just because I don't like to deal with black's initiative in the main line after d5 ed na5 Bb5 c6 dc bc be2 since the pawn sacrifice seems to be quite sound for black, personally i've found that 4. d3 while very quiet looking is an attempt to play the two knights kind of like a ruy lopez, it avoids lots of theory, gives white a good chance for a long term advantage and can be quite tricky (I'm also an Evan's Gambit player: talk about contrasting openings)

I think 4.d3 is the only way to play for an opening advantage. After all others Black can try to take over the initiative.

I would like to agree, but I think white gets some initiative after d4 also after ed followed by e5, a lot of strong young attacking players enjoy this line the only line that theory claims is still equal here (Theory also claims 3. Bc4 is just equal and it's probably right) black has to play ng4 white castles and white will already enjoy a significant lead in development.

The counter gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 d5! 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nxd4 Bc5! is strong; White is struggling for equality. There is another thread on this line.

wrote on 12/09/04 at 23:59:11:

The counter gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 d5! 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nxd4 Bc5! is strong; White is struggling for equality.

Really?  I thought that White was perfectly O.K. after 8. Be3. Some (Harding anyway) have claimed even a little better.  I have played the Black side of this several times in serious games without thinking that either side had very much.

I would rather have Black after 8.Be3
A) 8...Bd7 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10.o-o Qe7! (White can probably maintain equality with 10.Nd2 Qh4!?
B) 8...o-o!? 9.Nxc6 bxc6 10.Bxc5 Nxc5 11.Bxc6 Rb8 12.o-o Rxb2 13.Bxd5 Ba6.
But even if Black has not very much, this still confirms my opinion that 4.d3! is the only way to play for an advantage.

wrote on 12/13/04 at 18:53:52:

But even if Black has not very much, this still confirms my opinion that 4.d3! is the only way to play for an advantage.

It is consistent with your view but it does not confirm it, since the big question is whether 4. Ng5 offers White good winning chances.  If I myself wanted the full point (why would I have opened this way :P ? but leaving that aside) I would play 4. Ng5 and make Black prove that he has full comp for the pawn.  

I don't think 4. d3 is a move that produces good winning chances, except in the sense that it produces a maneuvering game that either player could win.  It is sometimes played at high levels, but I don't know that anyone is claiming a theoretical edge for White.  Don't forget that Black not only has 4...Bc5 (= sez I) but also 4...Be7 (=).  Unfortunately 4...d5 is not quite sound.  I would be most interested to learn if there are any lines that offer much to White.

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 is equal. If you like, I will provide you with some analysis.

I would very much like to see that analysis!  I was under the impression that White was considered better in the Ulvestad/Fritz variations.  When I last looked at the Ulvestad, I also thought White had some intersting options other than transposing to the Fritz.  But it was a while back ...

A line for Black, in which R.J.Fischer was beaten severely should be taken seriously, don't you think? (Fischer-Burger, San Francisco sim 1964).
The Fritz-Ulvestad Variation has been thoroughly tested in corr. games - especially in theme tournaments - with satisfactory results for Black. At the other hand, OTB-players usually prefer 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5. I do not want to challenge the excellent reputation of this move, but still feel the centralization of the knight more natural. Moreover the thematic move b7-b5 opens a very strong diagonal for the queen's bishop.
According to all sources I know, 5...b5 (I think this more precise than 5...Nd4 6.c3 b5, but it is not so clear) 6.Bf1 (6.Bxb5 Qxd5 with Bb7 to follow) Nd4 (I do not trust h6 and Nxd5) 7.c3 Nxd5 8.Ne4 (8.cxd4 Qxg5; 8.Nxf7 Kxf7 9.cxd4 exd4 or Nf4; 8.h4?! h6) Ne6! (the piece sac Qh4 is insufficient) 9.Bxb5+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ (10.Qa4 Ndf4) Qxd7 11.o-o Be7 12.d4 exd4 13.cxd4 o-o 14.Nbc3 and all sources I know, give White some advantage here. I am so arrogant to disagree: Rad8! (the other rook must support the march of the f-pawn)
a) 15.Nxd5 Qxd5 16.Nc3 Qxd4 17.Be3 Qe5 18.Qa4 Bd6
   19.g3 Nc5 and Black's activity compensates for the weak queen's pawns.
b) 15.Be3 Nxc3 16.bxc3 (16.Nxc3 Nxd4 =) f5 17.Nc5
    Bxc5 18.dxc5 Qc6 and Black has a good position; his
    main idea is f5-f4-f3.
This line is a good illustration of the dynamic point of view, that one must strive for active play to compensate a weakness, rather than passively defend it.

wrote on 12/15/04 at 05:26:46:

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 is equal. If you like, I will provide you with some analysis.

I would very much welcome anything you have on this!  I generally teach my students to play 5...b5 -- at lower levels 6. Bf1 is very seldom played -- but after 6. Bf1 h6 (6...Nxc5 7. Bxb5 leads to some advantage for White, as many here will know)  7. Nxf7 Kxf7  8. Be2! Bc5  9. 0-0 I doubt that Black has full compensation, even after the stange and diabolical 9...h5!? as played by Madame Rausis.

My impression is that the Fritz variation, into which 6...Nd4 transposes, is also unsound.  I would welcome any information to the contrary.

wrote on 12/15/04 at 18:15:36:

A line for Black, in which R.J.Fischer was beaten severely should be taken seriously, don't you think? (Fischer-Burger, San Francisco sim 1964). The Fritz-Ulvestad Variation has been thoroughly tested in corr. games - especially in theme tournaments - with satisfactory results for Black. At the other hand, OTB-players usually prefer 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5. I do not want to challenge the excellent reputation of this move, but still feel the centralization of the knight more natural. Moreover the thematic move b7-b5 opens a very strong diagonal for the queen's bishop. According to all sources I know, 5...b5 (I think this more precise than 5...Nd4 6.c3 b5, but it is not so clear) 6.Bf1 (6.Bxb5 Qxd5 with Bb7 to follow) Nd4 (I do not trust h6 and Nxd5) 7.c3 Nxd5 8.Ne4 (8.cxd4 Qxg5; 8.Nxf7 Kxf7 9.cxd4 exd4 or Nf4; 8.h4?! h6) Ne6! (the piece sac Qh4 is insufficient) 9.Bxb5+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ (10.Qa4 Ndf4) Qxd7 11.o-o Be7 12.d4 exd4 13.cxd4 o-o 14.Nbc3 and all sources I know, give White some advantage here. I am so arrogant to disagree: Rad8! (the other rook must support the march of the f-pawn) a) 15.Nxd5 Qxd5 16.Nc3 Qxd4 17.Be3 Qe5 18.Qa4 Bd6    19.g3 Nc5 and Black's activity compensates for the weak queen's pawns. b) 15.Be3 Nxc3 16.bxc3 (16.Nxc3 Nxd4 =) f5 17.Nc5     Bxc5 18.dxc5 Qc6 and Black has a good position; his     main idea is f5-f4-f3. This line is a good illustration of the dynamic point of view, that one must strive for active play to compensate a weakness, rather than passively defend it.

Thanks, I will check that out with one of my students, this evening.

Hi to all!
I just finished several tournaments between my best engines on the theme of Fegatello (= fried liver) attack
My conclusion is that it's a draw , not a forced one , but an equal endgame : let us see:
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 Ng5 d5 5 exd5 Nxd5
6 Nxf7 Kxf7 7 Nf3+ Ke6 8 Nc3 Nb4 9 a3 Nxc2+ 10 Kd1 Nxa1 11 Nxd5 c6 12 Nb6+ Kd6 13 Nxa8 Qh4! 14 Qd3+ Qd4 15 Qxd4+ exd4 with an equal endgame
on 7 games , There are 5 draws and 2 Black wins
If White wants to win he must rely on LoLLi attack 6 d4
and if 6...exd4 7 O-O

wrote on 04/02/05 at 02:38:12:

Hi to all! I just finished several tournaments between my best engines on the theme of Fegatello (= fried liver) attack My conclusion is that it's a draw , not a forced one , but an equal endgame : let us see: 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 Ng5 d5 5 exd5 Nxd5 6 Nxf7 Kxf7 7 Nf3+ Ke6 8 Nc3 Nb4 9 a3 Nxc2+ 10 Kd1 Nxa1 11 Nxd5 c6 12 Nb6+ Kd6 13 Nxa8 Qh4! 14 Qd3+ Qd4 15 Qxd4+ exd4 with an equal endgame on 7 games , There are 5 draws and 2 Black wins If White wants to win he must rely on LoLLi attack 6 d4 and if 6...exd4 7 O-O

In the Fried Liver, Black also has 10...Nd4 11.Bxd5+ Kd7! with good chances due to the strong knight on d4 and the idea of getting his king to safety with ...c6 and ...Kc7 (meanwhile White's king is looking shaky). So this is another reason for White to prefer the Lolli Attack, but even here things aren't straight forward. What do you think to this game?:

Kalvach,W v Drtina,Milan
EU-ch corr, 1986

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4 Bb4+ 7.c3 Be7 8.Nxf7 Kxf7 9.Qf3+ Ke6 10.Qe4 b5 11.Bxb5 Bb7 12.f4 g6 13.fxe5 Rf8 14.Qg4+ Rf5 15.Bd3 Nxd4 16.Rf1 Ne3 17.Bxe3 Nf3+ 18.gxf3 Qxd3 19.Qd4 Bh4+ 20.Qxh4 Qxe3+ 0-1

Most Black players only play 5...Nxd5 through ignorance and end up getting pasted. But if Black knows his stuff, 5...Nxd5 could catch White off guard.

If this is correct, it is another reason to prefer 4.d3. But according to my notes, White's play can improved with 12.o-o (in stead of 12.f4) Rf8 13.Bxc6 Bxc6 14.c4 Nb4 15.d5+ Nxd5 16.Rd1 +=.

Never played Ng5 as it is way too much work for white and Tarrasch called it a duffer's move. You have all the above mentioned variations and to make matters worse it is hard to find OTB a way to refute variations like the Traxler and 4 .. Nxe4

I have recently faced 4.Ng5 in correspondence chess and like it for white...(although I manage to win as Black!  ;) ). My problem is 3...Bc5 and it seems that 4.d3/4.c3 was proven harmless in those Karpov-Korchnoi matches... (I've lived some years....)

I don't quite trust 4.b4. it looks speculative....

Thanks to anyone who comes out with something useful against 3...Bc5

I have played about everything after 3 .. Bc5.
The c3, d3 setup imo promises very little as long as black pays attention. The same goes for the Canal with d3, Nc3.
So you're left with 4 c3 after which Nf6 is the only serious move. 4 .. d6 gives away the center and 4 .. Qe7/Bb6 allows d4, d5, a4 and d6 in that order, which is an excellent gambit where black gets locked up.
After that you have the Möller, the modern or some gambit lines.
So 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Bc5 4 c3 Nf6 5 d4 exd4 6 cxd4 Bb4+:
7 Bd2 is the modern, which gives open play without a real advantage, though there is room for deviation from the main lines.
7 Nc3 is the Möller which I dont recommend if you follow the theoretical main line (with Bf6), as it is analysed to death. Though if you deviate with g4 (bayonet) around move 12, you should get a good attacking game which hasnt been analysed that much (and is for sure ignored by your opponent)
The other option is not to recapture with 6 cxd4 and either play 0-0 or b4. These are not 100% sound though.

The bayonet with 12.g4 or 13.g4 has been refuted by the strong Dutch corr. player D.Smit several years ago.
After 3...Bc5 White gets nothing (or less) with 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4. The only chance for dynamic equality is 6.o-o!? which is underestimated according to Emms.
But if White wants to get an opening advantage, he must try 4.b4, 4.c3 Nf6 5.b4 or 4.c3 Nf6 5.d3. Not that this advantage is guaranteed - but that is not the case in the Closed Ruy Lopez either.
Since the last Karpov-Kortsjnoj match there have been some developments. Because Black had some difficulties equalizing, the 4.c3 Nf6 5.d3 variation had some modest popularity. I remember this, as I am not that young anymore as well ...

Refuted is a bit too strong methinks. The whole 4 c3 Nf6 5 d4 exd4 complex have a lot of attacking variations where black has to know what he is doing or he will get blown away. Even the modern gives white an initiative if you avoid the draw variation (6 cxd4 Bb4+ 7 Bd2 Bxd2+ 8 Nbxd2 d5 9 exd5 Nxd5 10 Qb3 Na5 11 Qa4+ Nc6 12 Qb3 etc). In that variation either 10 0-0 or something with 12 Bb5 may avoid it, in particular 10 0-0 is quite underestimated.

wrote on 04/03/05 at 20:55:15:

If this is correct, it is another reason to prefer 4.d3. But according to my notes, White's play can improved with 12.o-o (in stead of 12.f4) Rf8 13.Bxc6 Bxc6 14.c4 Nb4 15.d5+ Nxd5 16.Rd1 +=.

[1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4 Bb4+ 7.c3 Be7 8.Nxf7 Kxf7 9.Qf3+ Ke6 10.Qe4 b5 11.Bxb5 Bb7]
Yes 12.0-0 looks stronger than 12.f4. It seems that 5...Nxd5 deserves the '?!' symbol after all.

3...Bc5 appears to be causing headaches! I think it's worth noting that (according to Emms) Garry Kasparov has stated that the Scotch is White's only serious alternative to the Spanish after 1.e4 e5. A little harsh perhaps, but I can't help believing that the Lopez and the Scotch will bear more fruit. Oh, and the King's Gambit ;D.

Hi Paul!
After 11 Bxb5 , books give only 11...Bb7 , but what if
11...Na5 , it looks stronger and giving more problems to White ?
Have you any game with this move? ::)

Not too keen on this one - knights on the rim and all that. E.g. 11...Na5 12.b4 Nxb4 13.Qxe5+ Kf7 14.cxb4 Bf6 15.Qf4 Qxd4 16.Qxc7+ Kg8 17. O-O! Qxb4 18. a4 and Black is struggling since 18...Bxa1? fails to 19. Qd8+ Qf8 20. Qd5+ Qf7 21. Qxa8 +-

Another downer for Black (if he's looking to play for a win) is 11.Bb3 (instead of 11.Bxb5). As far as I can see, White can force a draw by repetition if he wants after 11...Bb7 (or 11...Rf8 12.O-O Bb7 [what else?] 13.Qg4+ Kf7 14.Qf3+ Ke6 15.Qg4+ ½-½) 12.Qg4+ Kf7 13.Qf3+ Ke6 14.Qg4+ ½-½ :(. It's worth pointing out that the same drawing idea for White on move 10 doesn't work: 10.Qg4+ (instead of 10.Qe4) 10...Kd6! 11.Qe4 Be6 =+. The bishop being on c8 rather than b7 makes all the difference. Unfortunately for Black, ...Bb7 is the only consistent follow up to ...b5 (and the only way to develop).

Nah, 5...Nxd5 is dead and buried as far as I'm concerned. Shame, it could have been great fun to play... :'(

My penny's worth:

The chessgames.com opening explorer database has 5...Na5 as by far the most popular defence, but, interestingly, 5...Nd4 as more successful, closely followed by 5...b5, with 5...Na5 lagging. I looked into a few of the 5...Nd4 examples and in one or two Black got into dreadful trouble. 5...b5 looks simplest for someone like me who is liable to go wrong somewhere.

Dear chessfriends,

I'm planning to do a detailed notes on the Fried Liver Attack {ECO C57}. Do you have any further moves suggestion (or from references like ECO Volume C, 4th edition esp.) to make one of this lines below esp. clear?

1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. Bc4 Nf6
4. Ng5 d5
5. exd5 Nxd5?!
6. Nxf7!? Kxf7
7. Qf3+ Ke6
8. Nc3 Ncb4!
9. Qe4 c6:
10. a3 Na6 11. d4 Nac7 12. Bf4 (12.O-O Kf7 13.dxe5 Be6 unclear; 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14. O-O+ Ke8 unclear e.g. 15.Qf3 Qh4; 12.Qxe5+?! Kf7 13.O-O Be6 14.Ne4 Qd7) 12. Kf7 13. Bxe5 (13.dxe5 Be6 14.O-O-O Qe7 =; 13.O-O-O!?) 13. Be6 14. O-O (14.O-O-O?! Qg5+ 15.f4 Nxc3 16.Qf3 Qg6 17.Qxc3 Nd5 18.Qb3 Nb6 19.Bxe6+ Qxe6 =+) 14. Bd6 unclear;

Any help on this is greatly appreciated. thanks.

After 5...Nxd5 6. d4 is Heisman's 6....Nxd4 7. c3  b5 (or f6) viable?

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Ncb4 9.Bb3 seems to be considered a  problem line for black.
9...c6 10.a3 Na6 11.Nxd5 cxd5 12.d4 Be7 13.0-0 Rf8 14.Qg3 Kf7 15.Qxe5 Kg8 16.Bxd5+ Kh8 17.Be4 Qe8 18.c3 and I think white has the advantage here with three pawns for the piece.

Remis_Aman wrote on 06/22/05 at 22:04:57:

Dear chessfriends, I'm planning to do a detailed notes on the Fried Liver Attack {ECO C57}. Do you have any further moves suggestion (or from references like ECO Volume C, 4th edition esp.) to make one of this lines below esp. clear? 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5?! 6. Nxf7!? Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 8. Nc3 Ncb4! 9. Qe4 c6: 10. a3 Na6 11. d4 Nac7 12. Bf4 (12.O-O Kf7 13.dxe5 Be6 unclear; 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14. O-O+ Ke8 unclear e.g. 15.Qf3 Qh4; 12.Qxe5+?! Kf7 13.O-O Be6 14.Ne4 Qd7) 12. Kf7 13. Bxe5 (13.dxe5 Be6 14.O-O-O Qe7 =; 13.O-O-O!?) 13. Be6 14. O-O (14.O-O-O?! Qg5+ 15.f4 Nxc3 16.Qf3 Qg6 17.Qxc3 Nd5 18.Qb3 Nb6 19.Bxe6+ Qxe6 =+) 14. Bd6 unclear; Any help on this is greatly appreciated. thanks.

There's some info in this thread here:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1269280756/30

Master_Om controversially claimed that Black was better or winning in all lines based on hard computer analysis, but most of the rest of us (myself included) reached similar conclusions to those in the quote above. 

A short summary of the improvements for both sides: after 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14.0-0+, if 14...Ke8 then I prefer White, but after Master_Om's suggestion 14...Kg8 I can't offer any advance on "unclear".  In the line 12.Bf4 Kf7 13.Bxe5 Be6, 14.0-0 Nf6! leaves Black with an edge, but White can deviate with 14.Qf3+ with similar lines to those following 12.f4.

Interesting that Conquistador suggests 9.Bb3 as this is Fritz's first choice and an option that none of us considered in the other thread.  I'll have to take a closer look at it when I have more time.

Re. 5...Nxd5 6.d4 Nxd4 7.c3, my impression is that it's probably just += with best play but that Black has to walk a tightrope to reach it.  Again I've seen this discussed elsewhere on the forum.

Another source is an e-book of computer-aided analysis from (now-FM) Dan Heisman. I don't have it, so I am not sure how it addresses the line in question. Here's the link:

http://www.chesscentral.com/Fried_Liver_and_Lolli_p/426535.htm

Silicon says that black is still holding after 9.Bb3.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Ncb4 9.Bb3 c6 10.a3 Na6 11.Nxd5 cxd5 12.d4 Be7 13.0-0 Rf8 14.Qg3 and now:

Instead of 14...Kf7 as I said, silicon thinks that black can get away with grabbing the pawn.  It looks risky, but black seems to have a solid advantage here.

14...exd4 15.Qxg7 Bf6 16.Qxh7 Kd6

A possible improvement could be 14.Qe4, although after 14...Qd6, black has the advantage once more.

14.Qe4 Qd6 15.Qxh7 Bf6

I don't see Black's advantage after 14.Qe4 Qd6 15.Qxh7 Bf6 16.Re1 Kd7 17.dxe5.
But I prefer 14.Qg3 exd4 15.Qxg7 Bf6 16.Qxh7 Kd6 17.Bf4+ Kc6 18.c4 (when attacking, open lines and diagonals against the enemy king) dxc3 19.Rad1 Be6 20.bxc3 Nc5 21.Rfe1 Re8 22.c4 (same principle; 22.Rxe6 is worth looking at as well) d4 23.Qh5 and Black has a hard time.

nexirae wrote on 12/24/03 at 11:19:30:

I'll tell ya right now why the Fried Liver is almost never seen anymore... Nxd5 lines have become so rare, not because of the Fried Liver but because of Morphy and Fischer's favorite, the Lolli attack. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4!   This move saves Nxf7 for later, say after exd4 O-O Be7 Nxf7! wins.  There is no need to sac the knight right away...black can hold his own in the Fried Liver.  In the Lolli though...not really.  Masters don't play Nxd5 anymore because of the Lolli, so why not invest some research into it? Also, one more subtlety I thought I'd bring up...if you dread the Na5 lines like I do, save Ng5 for another move.  I prefer 4.d4! and will play a Perreux variation if it doesn't go back into a Lolli.  This move order effectively eliminates the Na5 line.  E.g., 4.d4 exd4 5.Ng5! Someone on here posted this site already, but: http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~goeller/urusov/perreux/index.html NeX iRae P.S. Get off Yahoo!  That site's worthless...check out USCL, FICS, ICC just to name a few.  Yahoo is just filled with cheaters and people who don't know how to play...ugh...

Dan Heisman, in a the July 2010 isse of Chess Life that even though White wins a piece after 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4 Nxd4!! & even though White wins a piece, Black is fine. He gives the following analysis: 7.c3 b5 8.Bxd5 Qxd5 9.cxd4 Qxg2 10.Rf1 Bb4ch 11.Nc3 f6 12.Qf3 Qxf3 13.Nxf3 Bg4 with excellent compensation.

SWJediknight wrote on 07/07/10 at 22:55:29:

Remis_Aman wrote on 06/22/05 at 22:04:57: Dear chessfriends, I'm planning to do a detailed notes on the Fried Liver Attack {ECO C57}. Do you have any further moves suggestion (or from references like ECO Volume C, 4th edition esp.) to make one of this lines below esp. clear? 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5?! 6. Nxf7!? Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 8. Nc3 Ncb4! 9. Qe4 c6: 10. a3 Na6 11. d4 Nac7 12. Bf4 (12.O-O Kf7 13.dxe5 Be6 unclear; 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14. O-O+ Ke8 unclear e.g. 15.Qf3 Qh4; 12.Qxe5+?! Kf7 13.O-O Be6 14.Ne4 Qd7) 12. Kf7 13. Bxe5 (13.dxe5 Be6 14.O-O-O Qe7 =; 13.O-O-O!?) 13. Be6 14. O-O (14.O-O-O?! Qg5+ 15.f4 Nxc3 16.Qf3 Qg6 17.Qxc3 Nd5 18.Qb3 Nb6 19.Bxe6+ Qxe6 =+) 14. Bd6 unclear; Any help on this is greatly appreciated. thanks. There's some info in this thread here: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1269280756/30 Master_Om controversially claimed that Black was better or winning in all lines based on hard computer analysis, but most of the rest of us (myself included) reached similar conclusions to those in the quote above.  A short summary of the improvements for both sides: after 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14.0-0+, if 14...Ke8 then I prefer White, but after Master_Om's suggestion 14...Kg8 I can't offer any advance on "unclear".  In the line 12.Bf4 Kf7 13.Bxe5 Be6, 14.0-0 Nf6! leaves Black with an edge, but White can deviate with 14.Qf3+ with similar lines to those following 12.f4. Interesting that Conquistador suggests 9.Bb3 as this is Fritz's first choice and an option that none of us considered in the other thread.  I'll have to take a closer look at it when I have more time. Re. 5...Nxd5 6.d4 Nxd4 7.c3, my impression is that it's probably just += with best play but that Black has to walk a tightrope to reach it.  Again I've seen this discussed elsewhere on the forum.

I gave 9.Bb3 in the Chess.com forum as well. Here is the possible continuation: 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3ch Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.Bb3 c6 10.a3 Na6 11.Nxd5 cxd5 12.d4 Be7 13.O-O Rf8 14.Qe4 +/=

sloughter wrote on 07/30/10 at 01:34:18:

nexirae wrote on 12/24/03 at 11:19:30: I'll tell ya right now why the Fried Liver is almost never seen anymore... Nxd5 lines have become so rare, not because of the Fried Liver but because of Morphy and Fischer's favorite, the Lolli attack. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4!   This move saves Nxf7 for later, say after exd4 O-O Be7 Nxf7! wins.  There is no need to sac the knight right away...black can hold his own in the Fried Liver.  In the Lolli though...not really.  Masters don't play Nxd5 anymore because of the Lolli, so why not invest some research into it? Also, one more subtlety I thought I'd bring up...if you dread the Na5 lines like I do, save Ng5 for another move.  I prefer 4.d4! and will play a Perreux variation if it doesn't go back into a Lolli.  This move order effectively eliminates the Na5 line.  E.g., 4.d4 exd4 5.Ng5! Someone on here posted this site already, but: http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~goeller/urusov/perreux/index.html NeX iRae P.S. Get off Yahoo!  That site's worthless...check out USCL, FICS, ICC just to name a few.  Yahoo is just filled with cheaters and people who don't know how to play...ugh... Dan Heisman, in a the July 2010 isse of Chess Life that even though White wins a piece after 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4 Nxd4!! & even though White wins a piece, Black is fine. He gives the following analysis: 7.c3 b5 8.Bxd5 Qxd5 9.cxd4 Qxg2 10.Rf1 Bb4ch 11.Nc3 f6 12.Qf3 Qxf3 13.Nxf3 Bg4 with excellent compensation.

We've been here before (sigh).

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1155593698

After 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 Ng5 d5 5 exd5 Nxd5 6 d4! Nxd4 7.c3 b5!? is a good try, but according to the analysis I published here in November 2008 8. Bd3! keeps White on top.

Does Heisman mention this?

In the Fried Liver Attack, after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 8. Nc3 Ncb4 9. Qe4 c6 10. a3 Na6 most (if not all) sources I've seen continue with 11.d4 without considering any alternatives.

To me, however 11.0-0!? might look like a possible improvement to this currently hard pressed line of the Fried Liver.

If any one out there have any experience with this or know about previous analysis on it, I'd be grateful to learn about it!

With best play it probably transposes to the critical 11.d4 line: 11.0-0 Nac7 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5+ Kg8 14.d4 Be6 (the same position as after 11.d4 Nac7 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14.0-0+ Kg8).  Fritz 10's openings book only gives 12.Re1, which is worse after 12...Kf7: 13.d4 (13.Qxe5 Bd6 =+) 13...exd4 14.Qf4+ Kg8 15.Qxd4 Qf6 =+ (although White still retains some attacking chances).

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4 Nxd4 7.c3 b5 8.Bd3 h6

[fen]r1bqkb1r/p1p2pp1/7p/1p1np1N1/3n4/2PB4/PP3PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - 0 9[/fen]

9.Qh5 hxg5 10.Qxh8 e4 11.Bxe4 Qe7 12.Nd2 Nc2+ 13.Kd1 Bf5 14.Bxc2 Bg4+ 15.Nf3 Nxc3+ 16.bxc3 O-O-O+ 17.Bd2 Bxf3+ 18.gxf3 Qd7 19.Ke2 Qxd2+ 20.Kf1 Bc5

I've been looking at these lines recently and playing them on ICC for fun as Black. I've yet to find a line that gives White a clear advantage. On the other hand, I've found several lines where Black has to play a series of not so obvious only moves. Not sure I'd play this OTB yet, but it's still fun. I think a lot of White opponents lose respect for me as soon as I play 5..Nxd5. They're checking history etc to see if I just started or something.

No doubt though, Phil's 8..Be7 is a bit of a lemon. I assumed he was using a computer to check the lines, not sure how that move got through.

Lwolf123 wrote on 04/05/11 at 00:20:32:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4 Nxd4 7.c3 b5 8.Bd3 h6 [fen]r1bqkb1r/p1p2pp1/7p/1p1np1N1/3n4/2PB4/PP3PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - 0 9[/fen] 9.Qh5 hxg5 10.Qxh8 e4 11.Bxe4 Qe7 12.Nd2 Nc2+ 13.Kd1 Bf5 14.Bxc2 Bg4+ 15.Nf3 Nxc3+ 16.bxc3 O-O-O+ 17.Bd2 Bxf3+ 18.gxf3 Qd7 19.Ke2 Qxd2+ 20.Kf1 Bc5 I've been looking at these lines recently and playing them on ICC for fun as Black. I've yet to find a line that gives White a clear advantage. On the other hand, I've found several lines where Black has to play a series of not so obvious only moves. Not sure I'd play this OTB yet, but it's still fun. I think a lot of White opponents lose respect for me as soon as I play 5..Nxd5. They're checking history etc to see if I just started or something. No doubt though, Phil's 8..Be7 is a bit of a lemon. I assumed he was using a computer to check the lines, not sure how that move got through.

Thanks for this. I analysed 8...Be7 because it seemed a logical developing move. I now accept that 8...h6 is much better and leads to fascinating complications. I had dismissed it because of 9 Qh5 but your line 9...hxg5! 10.Qxh8 e4! certainly calls that into question.

If I find anything convincing for White I shall get back to you. My first impression, without using any engine, is that White should investigate positional solutions such as 11 cxd4 exd3 12 0-0, and 9 Ne4 Nc6 10 Bxb5.

Quote:

My first impression, without using any engine, is that White should investigate positional solutions such as 11 cxd4 exd3 12 0-0 ...

This has been played in two corr games recently. To me it looks as if 11 cxd4 exd3 12 0-0 Qf6 (as played in Pott - Tsirakovsky) gives Black a good game.

[PGN][Event "SB-2010-0-00114"]
[Site "Lechenicher SchachServer"]
[Date "2010.10.23"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Pott, Brian"]
[Black "Tsirakovsky, Sergey"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C57"]
[WhiteElo "1655"]
[BlackElo "1890"]
[PlyCount "52"]
[EventDate "2010.09.26"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. d4 Nxd4 7. c3 b5 8.
Bd3 h6 9. Qh5 hxg5 10. Qxh8 e4 11. cxd4 exd3 12. O-O Qf6 13. Qh5 Be6 14. Re1
Be7 15. Qh8+ Bf8 16. Nc3 Qxd4 17. Bxg5 Nxc3 18. bxc3 Qg4 19. Re5 d2 20. f3 Qa4
21. Rxe6+ Kd7 22. Qh3 fxe6 23. Bxd2 Qc4 24. Kh1 Rd8 25. Bg5 Be7 26. Bxe7 Kxe7
1/2-1/2[/PGN]

[PGN][Event "OP-2008-0-00691"]
[Site "Lechenicher SchachServer"]
[Date "2008.12.06"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Uifelean, Andrei"]
[Black "Aba, Nessi"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "1942"]
[BlackElo "2063"]
[PlyCount "52"]
[EventDate "2008.12.05"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. d4 Nxd4 7. c3 b5 8.
Bd3 h6 9. Qh5 hxg5 10. Qxh8 e4 11. cxd4 exd3 12. O-O Be6 13. Nc3 b4 14. Ne4 Nf4
15. Bxf4 gxf4 16. Nc5 Qxd4 17. Nxe6 fxe6 18. Qh5+ Ke7 19. Rac1 Rc8 20. b3 Qd5
21. Qh4+ Ke8 22. Qxf4 d2 23. Rcd1 Rd8 24. Qxc7 Rd7 25. Qc8+ Kf7 26. Kh1 Qb5 1-0[/PGN]


Quote:

Use the new ChessFlash facility!! -TonyK ;)

SWJediknight wrote on 07/07/10 at 22:55:29:

Remis_Aman wrote on 06/22/05 at 22:04:57: Dear chessfriends, I'm planning to do a detailed notes on the Fried Liver Attack {ECO C57}. Do you have any further moves suggestion (or from references like ECO Volume C, 4th edition esp.) to make one of this lines below esp. clear? 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5?! 6. Nxf7!? Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 8. Nc3 Ncb4! 9. Qe4 c6: 10. a3 Na6 11. d4 Nac7 12. Bf4 (12.O-O Kf7 13.dxe5 Be6 unclear; 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14. O-O+ Ke8 unclear e.g. 15.Qf3 Qh4; 12.Qxe5+?! Kf7 13.O-O Be6 14.Ne4 Qd7) 12. Kf7 13. Bxe5 (13.dxe5 Be6 14.O-O-O Qe7 =; 13.O-O-O!?) 13. Be6 14. O-O (14.O-O-O?! Qg5+ 15.f4 Nxc3 16.Qf3 Qg6 17.Qxc3 Nd5 18.Qb3 Nb6 19.Bxe6+ Qxe6 =+) 14. Bd6 unclear; Any help on this is greatly appreciated. thanks. There's some info in this thread here: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1269280756/30 Master_Om controversially claimed that Black was better or winning in all lines based on hard computer analysis, but most of the rest of us (myself included) reached similar conclusions to those in the quote above.  A short summary of the improvements for both sides: after 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14.0-0+, if 14...Ke8 then I prefer White, but after Master_Om's suggestion 14...Kg8 I can't offer any advance on "unclear".  In the line 12.Bf4 Kf7 13.Bxe5 Be6, 14.0-0 Nf6! leaves Black with an edge, but White can deviate with 14.Qf3+ with similar lines to those following 12.f4. Interesting that Conquistador suggests 9.Bb3 as this is Fritz's first choice and an option that none of us considered in the other thread.  I'll have to take a closer look at it when I have more time. Re. 5...Nxd5 6.d4 Nxd4 7.c3, my impression is that it's probably just += with best play but that Black has to walk a tightrope to reach it.  Again I've seen this discussed elsewhere on the forum.

Controversial ????
Then Its time to post my analysis I have been running. lets see if this is controversial again.