what is the best variation to combat the english defense, i usually go for the hedgehog but somehow im bored with it for the moment

There are several strong defences to the English Opening. 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 (3.g3 Bb4) 3...Nc6 would be my recommendation as it probably has the best theoretical reputation at present. Both the ...Bb4 and ...d5 systems are entirely respectable, so it comes down to a matter of taste which of these options you implement.

Usually Black's best option is heading for a transposition to your 1.d4 defence.

Try unorthodox lines, such as 1 c4 g5 (Myers Defense) or 1 c4 b5!? , the Halibut (aka English Wing) Gambit.

Gambit wrote on 09/27/09 at 03:50:36:

Try unorthodox lines, such as 1 c4 g5 (Myers Defense) or 1 c4 b5!? , the Halibut (aka English Wing) Gambit.

1.c4 g5, whilst objectively second-rate, is not bad as a surprise weapon, particularly if White falls for 2.d4 Bg7 3.Bg5?! c5! when already Black is doing very well, but 1.c4 b5? is just bad as Black is throwing away a pawn and not achieving any notable compensation for it. Compare with the Sicilian and English Wing Gambits, where White has a useful extra move in comparison and still fails to obtain sufficient compensation.

@MNb

That is a good practical option, but against several of these setups White can fight for an advantage in the independent English/Reti lines, e.g. 1.c4 c6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 Nf6 4.Nc3 a la Gurevich, 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 3.e4 (Mikenas Attack) and the Qa4+ Anti-Grunfeld. However, White cannot really fight for an advantage against the King's Indian (via. a 1...Nf6 move order) without transposing to 1.d4 territory. However, White can contend for an advantage in the 1...c5 and 1...e5 variations as well.

tbh. I don't like ... e5 followed by Bb4 for flack.
white is supersolid on kingside and pressurizes black on queenside,
and there is not much black can do against that ...
also when looking up the common Bb4 move order white wins quite often on gm level  ... another problem with ... e5 against c4 is when white commences with 1. Nf3 and after that plays c4, you have to learn another system, that probably also can be applied against 1.c4 ... I myself I don't want to have any redundancy in my repertoire (that is also why do not understand why there are people playing budapest and albin, they can only be played against d4 c4, if white plays Nf3, they have to play something else, that is also playable against the normal d4 c4 ...)

ayen wrote on 09/26/09 at 03:11:39:

"i usually go for the hedgehog"

Do you combine this with the Nimzo/QID vs. d4?
If so then you don´t have many independent possibilities which fit vs. 1.c4 as well as 1.Nf3/2.c4.

You may want to take a look at Richard Pallisers book "Beating unusual chess openings" where he offers a repertoire vs. 1.c4 and 1.Nf3 based on a Botvinnik-Setup with c5, Nc6, e5, g6, Bg7, Nge7.

TN wrote on 09/27/09 at 08:46:01:

@MNb That is a good practical option, but against several of these setups White can fight for an advantage in the independent English/Reti lines, e.g. 1.c4 c6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 Nf6 4.Nc3 a la Gurevich, 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 3.e4 (Mikenas Attack) and the Qa4+ Anti-Grunfeld. However, White cannot really fight for an advantage against the King's Indian (via. a 1...Nf6 move order) without transposing to 1.d4 territory. However, White can contend for an advantage in the 1...c5 and 1...e5 variations as well.

That's why I wrote "usually". Still I doubt if Black's chances for equality in the Gurevich line are worse than after the independent 1...c5 and 1...e5, which require much more work. In case of the NID/QID I completely agree with you, partly because of the Mikenas indeed. I never have known what to think of the Qa4+ Anti-Grünfeld. In addition Black also has problems to reach the QGA after 1.c4  ;).

I mainly hoped that Ayen would reveal what (s)he intends after 1.d4, but until now in vain. Until then I doubt if this thread will result in something substantial.

Against 1.d4 my favorite defense is Czech Benoni , but sometimes i also played Benko Gambit and Slav, but when i white i previously preferred E-4, however due to lack of time studying a lot of opening nuisances, i started playing the Kings Englis (1. c4..2. g3).  I saw this opening a month ago at Chessbase site, and it gives me a lot of rating points at ICC, i peaked last month at 2476 at blitz.  Although i must admit that my understanding of this opening is still superficial at the moment, but oh boy! i defeated a lot of IM's ang some GM's using it.  But yesterday i meet a very strong player,a nd exposed me that my understanding of the opening is still in its infancy.  I got a good lesson anyway, and now im already convinced that i should buy the DVD Fritz trainer authored by Nigel Davies.

As many have stated, 1..e5 is the most principled answer to 1.c4--the move most 1.c4-players hate to face.

As TN wrote above, why not try the Reversed Sicilian Four Knights with ..Bb4? Free piece play, quick and easy development, Black gets his fair share of the center and often even more (..e4). You often get an attack on the kingside... You can often damage White's pawn structure (..Bxc3) and then start exchanging pieces...
White has to pay attention to your moves from the very beginning.

I started to study this not too long ago and have played it a few times against u2100-players and they were absolutely confused and spent a lot of time even finding theoretical moves.
If you, like me, play the Bogo-Indian and/or the Zurich Variation of the Nimzo-Indian Defense, it's all the better.

The set-up w/ ..Bb4 is recommended in Khalifman's 2001 repertoire book, Openings for Black According to Karpov.

English players hate to face 1...e5?  :o

Mihael Marin tells an interesting anecdote in his new book: "Grandmaster Repertoire 3" about players often specifically preparing 1..e5 against him to punish his English opening. Almost invariably, he said he triumphed.

Personally, I played 1. c4 exclusively on my return to chess several years ago and I looked forward most to playing against 1...e5.  (1...c6 was the move I least looked forward to)

I also disagree that English players hate to play against 1...e5. English players live to play the Reversed Sicilian lines! If I had to pick a line that I hate playing against, it would be the KID setup or the Symmetrical, and I'd guess that that's exactly how most English players feel about it.

Antillian wrote on 10/01/09 at 14:18:23:

English players hate to face 1...e5?  :o Mihael Marin tells an interesting anecdote in his new book: "Grandmaster Repertoire 3" about players often specifically preparing 1..e5 against him to punish his English opening. Almost invariably, he said he triumphed.

Well can't talk with any authority about play at Marin's level, but my view is that if you plan to 'punish' the English you are setting yourself up for problems.  1.c4 is a perfectly fine first move, I believe we would all admit.

A stronger player than all of us - GM Mednis - agrees completely. Equalizing after 1.c4 is no less an achievement than after 1.d4 and 1.e4. Creating winning chances is also equally problematic.

tbh. the reversed sicilian is the ultimate answer to 1.c4,
but you need to know the opening well.

I think the DVD chess fritz trainer titled The secrets of champions by Adrian Mi... err i forgot the exact spelling of his surname.  Anyway, i think it would immensely benefit all English Openings enthusiast, i think with Flank Opening subscribe from chesspublishing.com and this DVD any one will soon become an English Opening experts.

Personally, I think that 1...c5 is the most principled answer.  It depends on your principles, I suppose.

I also hate to face 1. c4, so an intresting thing to do is to watch the "specialists" play against the system they like. This is how I found my answer to 1.c4. I took up what Davies is playing against the english  :P

Markovich wrote on 10/04/09 at 02:53:53:

Personally, I think that 1...c5 is the most principled answer.  It depends on your principles, I suppose.

1..e5 prevents more than 1..c5.

HoemberChess wrote on 10/06/09 at 06:52:45:

Markovich wrote on 10/04/09 at 02:53:53: Personally, I think that 1...c5 is the most principled answer.  It depends on your principles, I suppose. 1..e5 prevents more than 1..c5.

These things can be debated ad infinitum. It really comes down to personal preference more than anything else.

HoemberChess wrote on 10/06/09 at 06:52:45:

Markovich wrote on 10/04/09 at 02:53:53: Personally, I think that 1...c5 is the most principled answer.  It depends on your principles, I suppose. 1..e5 prevents more than 1..c5.

Yes, Markovich forgot the uber-critical square f4.

wrote on 10/02/09 at 18:54:58:

tbh. the reversed sicilian is the ultimate answer to 1.c4, but you need to know the opening well.

It depends, I don't think the reversed sicilian is that good if white does not play g3 - e.g. an e3 4 knights.

I have noticed OTB people play differently against the English, than in correspondence. In correspondence many players will play e5, but OTB, I find a lot of players try to get into their d4 defence (makes sense, for memory reasons). In this respect, I think moves like c6, e6, and g6 are all very good reponses to c4, and for many players who want to be able to transpose if they can, will be the best.

Nope. :D But after 1.c4 e5 there is no 2.Nf3 any more, while after 1.c4 c5 you can still move either knight.
1..e5 has more influence on the center and finally, it opens up a diagonal for a bishop.


Uruk wrote on 10/06/09 at 19:07:08:

HoemberChess wrote on 10/06/09 at 06:52:45: Markovich wrote on 10/04/09 at 02:53:53: Personally, I think that 1...c5 is the most principled answer.  It depends on your principles, I suppose. 1..e5 prevents more than 1..c5. Yes, Markovich forgot the uber-critical square f4.

I don't know where the idea would come from that the 4. e3 Four Knights English is "not that good" for Black (meaning he shouldn't be able to equalize?), or that 4. e3 is better than 4. g3.

I wonder if the founders of the Informant in some sense agreed with Markovich, since they put 1. c4 c5 after 1. c4 e5 in their code system (it's a principle of the system that main lines come last).

I think probably what moahunter is trying to say is that 4...d5 isn't a great idea after 4.e3, which I would agree with.

HoemberChess wrote on 10/22/09 at 18:56:57:

But after 1.c4 e5 there is no 2.Nf3 any more, while after 1.c4 c5 you can still move either knight.

Well well well

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1007101
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1032362

After 1.c4 e5
2.Nf3 is a "?"-move, no matter how these games continued.


Uruk wrote on 10/22/09 at 23:55:06:

HoemberChess wrote on 10/22/09 at 18:56:57: But after 1.c4 e5 there is no 2.Nf3 any more, while after 1.c4 c5 you can still move either knight. Well well well http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1007101 http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1032362

Perhaps. Note that there are as many lines in 1.c4 e5 where the knight goes to f3 than to e2.

It's a question of what your principles are.  If you are with Tarrasch that the most principled move is the one that takes the most of the center, then 1...e5 is the "most principled" reply to both 1.e4 and 1.c4.  If your first principle is to resist White's establishment of a strong center and/or to obtain a central pawn majority, then 1...c5 is the most principled reply, again to both 1.e4 and 1.c4.  This latter idea is both prophylactic and dynamic; the former is if White delays d4; the latter if he plays it, when Black obtains the central pawn majority in exchange for his disadvantage in space.

Principles don't matter much in chess, so I'm not sure it's worth debating this very much more.

P.S. I don't think White's 2.Nf3 is in any way impeded by 1...e5.  White can hardly object to playing an Alekhine's with "...c5" already in.  It may not be best, but it's not objectionable.

It takes a lot of guts to declare a completely natural looking developing 2nd move a mistake. Tell that to Larsen, who played 1. g3 d5 2. Bg2 e5 3. Nf3!? many times.

TonyRo wrote on 10/23/09 at 17:13:00:

It takes a lot of guts to declare a completely natural looking developing 2nd move a mistake. Tell that to Larsen, who played 1. g3 d5 2. e5 3. Nf3!? many times.

I'm assuming white's second move there was Bg2 ;-)

I have no idea what you're talking about.  ;)

Cool Larsen games!  :)

That said, I've a memory of looking at this a while back and (if I'm not getting mixed up) not fancying White too much after 3 ...Nc6 4 0-0 Nf6 5 c4 (not the only move of course, but L's move) dc. Anyone got thoughts on whether/how White can set Black problems after that?

I agree with people earlier stating that the discussion on "which is blacks best move after 1.c4?" is rather pointless...it is not like anyone ever will be able to prove thir case anyway. That said - to me it feels like 1..e5 could/should be the most principled answer to 1.c4, but from a practical viewpoint it leads to more play and is therefore more fun to meet than 1...c5. 1..c6 and 1..e6 are problematic in the way that if one wants to avoid the mainline Slav, Semislav and QGD it is difficult to believe that white will get a real advantage. Then again on most levels it is more important to reach positions one understand and like than getting a theoretical advantage so dodging the critical queens gambit lines can make perfect sense.

MNb wrote on 10/02/09 at 04:07:31:

Equalizing after 1.c4 is no less an achievement than after 1.d4 and 1.e4. Creating winning chances is also equally problematic.

do you mean for Black or for White?

wrote on 12/10/09 at 14:20:31:

MNb wrote on 10/02/09 at 04:07:31: Equalizing after 1.c4 is no less an achievement than after 1.d4 and 1.e4. Creating winning chances is also equally problematic. do you mean for Black or for White?

Personally I'm a champion of the gray pieces.  They're the ones that I usually have to play with, anyway.

In my (honest!) opinion the solution is to know everything and to be flexible:

1 c4 Nf6! and then: 2 d4 e6! , 2 Nc3 e5! , 2 g3 c6! , 2 Nf3 c5! , 2 (others) g6!

tracke  :)

tracke wrote on 12/11/09 at 11:29:48:

In my (honest!) opinion the solution is to know everything and to be flexible: 1 c4 Nf6! and then: 2 d4 e6! , 2 Nc3 e5! , 2 g3 c6! , 2 Nf3 c5! , 2 (others) g6! tracke  :)

1. c4 Nf6 2. g3 e6 is fine as well - if you're going to allow the Catalan with your 2. d4 move order, the Reti-Catalan (1. c4 Nf6 2. g3 e6 3. Bg2 d5 4. Nf3 dxc4) is hardly a big enough reason to not go into what you already know if white opts for 4. d4 instead. That said, 2...c6 as you gave is good, too.

And if you're going to play the Symmetrical English after 1. c4 Nf6 2. Nf3, then there's little to no reason not to just play it immediately, given that 2. Nc3 and 2. g3 in the Symmetrical aren't a huge deal.

TonyRo wrote on 10/23/09 at 17:13:00:

Tell that to Larsen, who played 1. g3 d5 2. Bg2 e5 3. Nf3!? many times.

A bit off topic, but I cannot resist.

Good ol' Brent even punted 3. b4!?. (I remember playing this in a rated game; my opponent almost fell from his chair!)

After 3.- Bxb4 4. c4 it seems White gets enough play...

Pierre.

Quote:

After 3.- Bxb4 4. c4 it seems White gets enough play...

Really? Tricky, I grant you, but why can't Black just play 4 ...Nf6? -- e.g. 5 cd 0-0 6 Nc3 c6, or 6 Qb3 Na6?

But I repeat my question of Reply 33. How does White get even a 'nibble' here?

belgian wrote on 12/12/09 at 06:39:50:

TonyRo wrote on 10/23/09 at 17:13:00: Tell that to Larsen, who played 1. g3 d5 2. Bg2 e5 3. Nf3!? many times. A bit off topic, but I cannot resist. Good ol' Brent even punted 3. b4!?. (I remember playing this in a rated game; my opponent almost fell from his chair!) After 3.- Bxb4 4. c4 it seems White gets enough play... Pierre.

Stefan Bücker published two articles on this:
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss30.pdf
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss31.pdf

tracke wrote on 12/11/09 at 11:29:48:

In my (honest!) opinion the solution is to know everything and to be flexible: 1 c4 Nf6! and then: 2 d4 e6! , 2 Nc3 e5! , 2 g3 c6! , 2 Nf3 c5! , 2 (others) g6! tracke  :)

Are you joking?  If not, that really is over the top.  I can see no reason why Black should have to have both 1...e5 and 1...c5 (which effectively is what you recommend) in his repertoire.  Maybe, for example, you would be good enough to explain what Black gains by delaying ...c5 until after 2...Nf6 3.Nf3, particularly since the thereby foregoes 2...Nc6.

Markovich wrote on 12/13/09 at 21:35:48:

tracke wrote on 12/11/09 at 11:29:48: In my (honest!) opinion the solution is to know everything and to be flexible: 1 c4 Nf6! and then: 2 d4 e6! , 2 Nc3 e5! , 2 g3 c6! , 2 Nf3 c5! , 2 (others) g6! tracke  :) Are you joking?  If not, that really is over the top.  I can see no reason why Black should have to have both 1...e5 and 1...c5 (which effectively is what you recommend) in his repertoire.  Maybe, for example, you would be good enough to explain what Black gains by delaying ...c5 until after 2...Nf6 3.Nf3, particularly since the thereby foregoes 2...Nc6.

1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e5 is easier for black to navigate than the comparable 1. c4 e5 2. g3, which is why it can be included. It's also more interesting than the Symmetrical English that comes up after 1. c4 c5 2. Nc3. Definitely not far-fetched.

There is logic in his choices - he plays variations of the Symmetrical when they aren't god-awful boring (2. Nc3/2. g3) due to white's move order with Nf3, and when white does try one of those choices he responds in a way that'll produce an interesting game.

And losing out on 1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 is not a big deal theoretically, since it's questionable as to if that's black's best theoretical option in the Symmetrical English anyway. 2...Nf6 retains the Hedgehog, Double Fianchetto, and is in better theoretical shape against early d4s on move three, or four, than 2...Nc6 is after 3. d4.

Markovich wrote on 12/13/09 at 21:35:48:

tracke wrote on 12/11/09 at 11:29:48: In my (honest!) opinion the solution is to know everything and to be flexible: 1 c4 Nf6! and then: 2 d4 e6! , 2 Nc3 e5! , 2 g3 c6! , 2 Nf3 c5! , 2 (others) g6! tracke  :) Are you joking?  If not, that really is over the top.  I can see no reason why Black should have to have both 1...e5 and 1...c5 (which effectively is what you recommend) in his repertoire.  Maybe, for example, you would be good enough to explain what Black gains by delaying ...c5 until after 2...Nf6 3.Nf3, particularly since the thereby foregoes 2...Nc6.

Best = best theoretically (in his opinion). No joke, I think.

Whether these choices are best are not is quite debatable. But more importantly, it is simply not practical for a regular player to learn so many defenses against White's fourth most popular opening choice.

Antillian wrote on 12/14/09 at 11:57:55:

Whether these choices are best are not is quite debatable. But more importantly, it is simply not practical for a regular player to learn so many defenses against White's fourth most popular opening choice.

All true, but for a CC player the case is different.

BPaulsen wrote on 12/13/09 at 22:16:16:

1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e5 is ... more interesting than the Symmetrical English that comes up after 1. c4 c5 2. Nc3.

What is interesting to someone is a subjective matter.  Personally I have no lack of interest in play after 1...c5.

Markovich wrote on 12/14/09 at 15:00:27:

BPaulsen wrote on 12/13/09 at 22:16:16: 1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e5 is ... more interesting than the Symmetrical English that comes up after 1. c4 c5 2. Nc3. What is interesting to someone is a subjective matter.  Personally I have no lack of interest in play after 1...c5.

Obviously you do, or you wouldn't play it. Obviously black players feel the game interesting, too, after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6, otherwise they wouldn't play it. Same thing, but not to everyone's tastes.

You couldn't see a reason for his suggestions, when the avoidance of Pure Symmetricals (1. c4 c5 2. Nc3/g3 Nc6/g6, etc., without transposition to ECO A-39) is the primary point.

BPaulsen wrote on 12/15/09 at 06:36:29:

You couldn't see a reason for his suggestions, when the avoidance of Pure Symmetricals (1. c4 c5 2. Nc3/g3 Nc6/g6, etc., without transposition to ECO A-39) is the primary point.

Fair enough.  Actually I did understand that, I just wanted to hear someone to argue the case that avoiding the "Pure Symmetrical" is enough reason to build up such a vast repertoire just to deal with the English.  The opportunity to play the early ...e5 is the reason I personally like 2...Nc6.

My point about "interesting" was only that it's rather circular to defend a repertoire choice based on what's interesting, since as you point out, one's interest is subjective, and naturally tends to follow one's repertoire choices.

To come back to the "Pure Symmetrical," personally I'm always happy to enter, I'm not sure what to call them, highly closed but rather balanced positions, as Black.  For example, the Closed Sicilian with 2...Nc6 or the Symmetrical English.  Closed positions where, unlike the Mar del Plata or the French, Black hasn't radically conceded half the board (all right, I admit that I find those intriguing also).  On the one hand the value of the tempo diminishes, and on the other one's ability to unbalance the game in one way or another seems to be enhanced.  But I'm off in Meta-Theory Land or at any rate, expressing mere personal preference.

Really I think the strongest criticism of 1...Nf6 is that it offers White the golden opportunity to return to 1.d4, 2.c4, but I suppose that playing 1.c4 is a kind of signal that White isn't going to do that.

I also suppose that Black will not object to meet 1.c4 Nf6 2.d4 because he/she also has 1.d4 Nf6 in his/her repertoire.

If I play the benoni as black, what defense against the english will allow me to transpose back into the benoni if white is willing? Or should I just focus on playing the most aggressive system against the english? What would that be?

There is no way you can force White to enter the Benoni after 1.c4. You should reformulate your question: what will you do after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3 cxd4 4.Nxd4 ? An attractive option is the Kasparov Gambit 4...e5 5.Ndb5 d5.
Then 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 suggests itself.

Or do you prefer 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3/Nf3 c5 allowing 4.Nf3/Nc3 cxd4 5.Nxd4 ? The same position results from 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 c5 3.Nf3 e6 4.d4.

Of course White does not need to play d2-d4 either after 1.c4. Black might play an early ...d5, an early Queen's Fianchetto or even a Double Fianchetto.

Just play the King's Indian and you will never have trouble with c4/Sf3...

JustGambling wrote on 12/17/09 at 22:08:17:

Just play the King's Indian and you will never have trouble with c4/Sf3...

True, but Black does have to know how to meet White's independent English options. The most important is 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 0-0 5.d3, when Black can either play ...c5 or ...e5 depending on what suits him, and the King's Indian Attack, 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3, when 2...g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.0-0 0-0 5.d3 d6 6.e4 is equal, but Black still must know how to play these positions.

There are other options such as the Botvinnik Setup (1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.e4 d6 4.g3), the Smyslov variation (1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.b4) and various b3 lines, but these are quite harmless against a knowledgeable opponent.

Just play the Leningrad Dutch or the Iljin-Zjenevsky and you will have even less trouble with c4/Nf3.

MNb wrote on 12/18/09 at 02:49:10:

Just play the Leningrad Dutch or the Iljin-Zjenevsky and you will have even less trouble with c4/Nf3.

You make the Leningrad Dutch sound so easy, and sound... we should all take it up as our main d4/c4 defense ::)

Actually, I sort of agree. At least if you play OTB, if you can (not always possible), play your d4 defense. If you can't get there directly like f4 can for some Dutch players, then moves like e6, d6, c6 and g6 are useful transpositional tools that provide options, and time to look at whites set up.