I discussed the following line on the forum a couple years back without reaching a clear verdict, since then there have been a few recent games played, but still it is difficult to draw any definitive conclusions:

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Be2 Nc6 5.d4 0-0-0 6.c4 Qf5 7.Be3 Bxf3 8.Bxf3 Nxd4 9.Bxd4 Qe6+ 10.Be2 c5?/?!/!?

[fen]2kr1bnr/pp2pppp/4q3/2p5/2PB4/8/PP2BPPP/RN1QK2R w KQ c6 0 11[/fen]


Is there a way for white to gain a clear advantage in the above position? If there is, no one has yet been able to prove it in tournament play. Nevertheless I am confident the forum members can do better.

Goodluck

Tops :) 

Why do you search this position for White? Black has perfect play after 10...Qe4. 10...c5 11.Qa4 is a forced draw at least for White but maybe he can try for more if a new idea is found here.

After 10... Qe4 perhaps White has something after 11.0-0 since both 11... Qxd4 or 11... Rxd4 can be answered by 12.Qa4 because of Black´s poor develpment and lone King...

Ametanoitos wrote on 05/18/10 at 17:20:25:

Why do you search this position for White? Black has perfect play after 10...Qe4. 10...c5 11.Qa4 is a forced draw at least for White but maybe he can try for more if a new idea is found here.

What is the forced draw? There doesn't seem to be a perpetual check, for example:

11.Qa4 cxd4 12.Qxa7 Nf6 13.Qa8+ Kc7 14.Qa5+ Qb6 15.Qe5+ Qd6 16.Qa5+ Kb8

I used the word "might" be a forced draw! As for the 10...Qe4 move it has proved its worth in the recent games. I guess Bauer in his forthcoming book will analyse it. I don't know, maybe 10...c5 is playable as well but at a first glance looks more weakening to me.

Ametanoitos wrote on 05/18/10 at 21:47:42:

I used the word "might" be a forced draw!

Actually you didn't.

Pfffff....you're right! It seems that i wanted to write it but in the end i did not! :-[ The really important thing is that imo this is not a varation that a well prepared player with Black will have problems.

Ametanoitos wrote on 05/18/10 at 17:20:25:

Why do you search this position for White? Black has perfect play after 10...Qe4. 10...c5 11.Qa4 is a forced draw at least for White but maybe he can try for more if a new idea is found here.

Doesn't 10...Qe4 lead to a very difficult position for black? What are these recent games that show good play for Black after 10...Qe4.

I thought black was holding better in the Qd6 lines following 3.Nc3, but of course I could be mistaken. 

Maybe White has a draw after 10...c5 11.Qa4, but that is not his objective.

Tops :)

TopNotch wrote on 05/19/10 at 00:29:59:

Doesn't 10...Qe4 lead to a very difficult position for black? What are these recent games that show good play for Black after 10...Qe4.

Perhaps

½-½ Boskovic,D-Savic,M/Vrnjacka Banja SRB 2009 (20)
½-½ Grabarczyk,B-Milov,L/Frankfurt 2008/CBM 125 Extra (15)
½-½ Brandenburg,D-Tiviakov,S/Hilversum 2008/The Week in Chess 700 (24)
½-½ Michna,C-Prie,E/Donostia 2009 (44)
0-1 D'Amore,C-Prie,E/Arvier 2007 (58)

but

1-0 Pirrot,D-Grafl,F/Germany 2007/EXT 2008 (49) went less well.

I wonder about

1-0 Bruzon Batista,L-Kurajica,B/La Laguna 2010 (25)
and if Black will survive say 16...a6 17.c5 Bxc5 18.Bxb7+ Kxb7 19.Rxd8 Qh1+ 20.Ke2 Qxg2.

I find it a bit weird that nobody has tested Wahls' analysis after 7.0-0 Nxd4 8.Nxd4 Bxe2 9.Qxe2 Rxd4 10.Be3 Rd8 11.Bxa7 Nf6. Black did not fare well when deviating. Interesting is

1-0 Heberla,B-Tomczak,J/Sroda Wlkp 2005/The Week in Chess 538 (58)

If 11.c5 is good after 10...Rd8 as well Black may be in trouble after 7.0-0.
Hope this helps.

Sorry Tops but after:
1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nf3 Bg4 4. d4 Nc6 5. Be2 O-O-O 6. c4 Qf5 7. Be3 Bxf3 8. Bxf3 Nxd4 9. Bxd4 Qe6+ 10. Be2 Qe4 11. O-O Qxd4 12. Qa4 e6 13. Nc3 Bd6 14.Rfd1 Qe5 15. g3
(which is the most critical variation and in a recent CBM was claimed that Black is lost here!)
15...Kb8! and Black may be even slightly better!

Ametanoitos wrote on 05/19/10 at 07:00:19:

Sorry Tops but after: 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nf3 Bg4 4. d4 Nc6 5. Be2 O-O-O 6. c4 Qf5 7. Be3 Bxf3 8. Bxf3 Nxd4 9. Bxd4 Qe6+ 10. Be2 Qe4 11. O-O Qxd4 12. Qa4 e6 13. Nc3 Bd6 14.Rfd1 Qe5 15. g3 (which is the most critical variation and in a recent CBM was claimed that Black is lost here!) 15...Kb8! and Black may be even slightly better!

I don´t know the CBM-article but instead of 14.Rfd1 isn´t 14.Nb5 Qe5 15.Nxd6+ cxd6 16.Bf3 better intending 16... Kb8 17.Rfe1 Qc5 18.b4! to push the pawns against the black King?

why 6. ..Qf5 anyway; 6. ..Qh5 looks far better and seems in the spirit of this line.

[quote author=717B7B70370 link=1272374076/10#10 date=1274285687I don´t know the CBM-article but instead of 14.Rfd1 isn´t 14.Nb5 Qe5 15.Nxd6+ cxd6 16.Bf3 better intending 16... Kb8 17.Rfe1 Qc5 18.b4! to push the pawns against the black King?[/quote]

Nope! According to the CBM article, Emms and Houska Black is slightly better here

The game to examine is the 0-1 D'Amore,C (2476)-Prie,E (2513)/Arvier 2007, where the circumspect 18... Qc7 was played. At least this is what Kritz in CBM 128 considered Black's best option.

Papageno wrote on 05/20/10 at 11:28:05:

The game to examine is the 0-1 D'Amore,C (2476)-Prie,E (2513)/Arvier 2007, where the circumspect 18... Qc7 was played. At least this is what Kritz in CBM 128 considered Black's best option.

Actually I think the game to consider is now 1-0 Bruzon Batista,L-Kurajica,B/La Laguna 2010 (25) as mentioned by MNb. It seems that White can just ignore the threat of Qf4/e5 and Qxh2+, and play 14.Bf3

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Be2 Nc6 5.d4 O-O-O 6.c4 Qf5 7.Be3 Bxf3 8.Bxf3 Nxd4 9.Bxd4 Qe6  10.Be2 Qe4 11.O-O Qxd4 12.Qa4 e6 13.Nc3 Bd6 14.Bf3 Qf4 15.Rfd1 Qxh2  16.Kf1 Ne7 17.Qxa7 c6 18.Na4 Kc7 19.c5 Be5 20.Qa5  Kc8 21.Nb6  Kb8 22.Rd7 Rxd7 23.Nxd7 Kc8 24.Nb6  Kb8 25.Rd1 1-0

And we come full circle to the crux of this thread, namely, how does White best prove an advanatge against the paradoxical [10...c5].  1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Be2 Nc6 5.d4 0-0-0 6.c4 Qf5 7.Be3 Bxf3 8.Bxf3 Nxd4 9.Bxd4 Qe6+ 10.Be2 c5?!or!?

Tops :)

TopNotch wrote on 05/20/10 at 22:38:10:

And we come full circle to the crux of this thread, namely, how does White best prove an advanatge against the paradoxical [10...c5].  1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Be2 Nc6 5.d4 0-0-0 6.c4 Qf5 7.Be3 Bxf3 8.Bxf3 Nxd4 9.Bxd4 Qe6+ 10.Be2 c5?!or!? Tops :)

In that other thread
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1209856655/105
gipc and I concluded that Black can hold the draw after 10...c5 11.Qa4 cxd4, and I haven't changed my mind yet.
You mentioned a few recent games in this line, can I ask you which ones?

Also, in the other thread you mentioned the alternatives 11.Nc3 and 11.Nd2, what is your current opinion on those?

Quote:

I discussed the following line on the forum a couple years back without reaching a clear verdict ...

Translation: "I came in on an interesting thread started a couple of years ago by someone else [linksspringer], full of doubts about the line in question, which from reply #7 on soon modulated towards caustic dismissal of the line and one of the openings via which it's reached; but I was unable to substantiate my POV by analysis, and now belatedly recognise that matters might not be so simple." ;D


Thanks for digging out the original link, linksspringer!

linksspringer wrote on 05/21/10 at 09:20:16:

TopNotch wrote on 05/20/10 at 22:38:10: And we come full circle to the crux of this thread, namely, how does White best prove an advanatge against the paradoxical [10...c5].  1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Be2 Nc6 5.d4 0-0-0 6.c4 Qf5 7.Be3 Bxf3 8.Bxf3 Nxd4 9.Bxd4 Qe6+ 10.Be2 c5?!or!? Tops :) In that other thread http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1209856655/105 gipc and I concluded that Black can hold the draw after 10...c5 11.Qa4 cxd4, and I haven't changed my mind yet. You mentioned a few recent games in this line, can I ask you which ones? Also, in the other thread you mentioned the alternatives 11.Nc3 and 11.Nd2, what is your current opinion on those?

The recent games I was referring to are: Milov,L - Pitl,G 2009 and Gaponenko,I - Kharitonov,A 2009 both ending in draws, maybe in both games the White player was caught unawares as 10...c5 is still very rare in OTB chess.

Regarding 11.Nc3 and 11.Nd2 I will have to defer comment as unfortunately when I was backing up my work database it froze inexplicably and then gave me an error message reading that the program has encountered a problem and has to close. When I reopened the program almost all of the annotated games in the database were partially destroyed, luckily the variations remained intact but all the commentary and evaluations were deleted.

I am in the process of reconstructing these evaluations and commentary, but needless to say its a very slow and depressing process. Fortunately for me I at least had some stuff saved on an external Hard Drive, but its a little dated.

Yes white can take a draw after 11.Qa4 if he likes, but I believe he can still try for more. I will leave you with one important sample line to "substantiate my POV" as Mr. Eccentric has translated it: 

11.Qa4 cxd4 12.Qxa7 Qe5

[12...d3 13.Nc3 dxe2 14.Qa8+ Kd7 15.Qxb7+ Ke8 16.Nd5 Rc8 17.a4 with good winning chances]

13.0-0!? Qxe2 14.Na3 e6 15.Qa8+! Kd7 16.Qxb7+ Ke8 17.Nb5 Be7 18.c5 Qe5

[18...d3 19.c6 d2 20.c7 d1Q 21.Raxd1 Rxd1 22.Qc6+ Kf8 23.Qa8+ Bd8 24.cxd8Q+ Rxd8 25.Qxd8 Mate]

19.c6 Qb8 20.a4 Qxb7 21.cxb7 Nf6 22.a5 Kd7 23.Rfc1 Nd5 24.a6 Bg5 25.Rc4 Winning.

Nice to see that after being ignored for so long that this thread has finally sprung to life. I am hoping that my Classical Ruy thread follows suit.

Tops :)

11.Qa4 cxd4 12.Qxa7

F12 is dreaming of a big advantage after 12. ...Qe5
R3 calculates Qe5 and Nf6 as roughly equal,
and Stockfish gives black a slight advantage after 12. ...Nf6 13.Na3 Qa6
It seems 10. ...c5 is playable.

Why 3.Nf3 anyway?

TopNotch wrote on 05/22/10 at 17:40:21:

13.0-0!? Qxe2 14.Na3 15.Qa8+! Kd7 16.Qxb7+ Ke8 17.Nb5 Be7 18.c5 Qe5

I'm not sure what you intended Black to play here, but presumably not 14...Qe5 which would be my choice. Now I can't find more than a draw for White.

AlanG wrote on 05/22/10 at 20:32:34:

TopNotch wrote on 05/22/10 at 17:40:21: 13.0-0!? Qxe2 14.Na3 15.Qa8+! Kd7 16.Qxb7+ Ke8 17.Nb5 Be7 18.c5 Qe5 I'm not sure what you intended Black to play here, but presumably not 14...Qe5 which would be my choice. Now I can't find more than a draw for White.

I'm sorry, I corrected my post now, it should be 14...e6. 14...Qe5 is another way to go, when after 15.c5 White has good winning chances.

Gawgaws stockfish's engine suggestion of 12...Nf6 looks best and equal, at least for the moment I don't see anything winning for White. Why 3.Nf3?, I happen to think it's a good line, no better or worse than 3.Nc3 and probably less exhaustively analysed. By the way what is this stockfish engine? Some googlin claimed it to be an illegal Rybka clone created in the ukraine by unscrupulous software competitors, but I find this hard to believe. 

Tops :)

TopNotch wrote on 05/23/10 at 02:31:06:

AlanG wrote on 05/22/10 at 20:32:34: TopNotch wrote on 05/22/10 at 17:40:21: 13.0-0!? Qxe2 14.Na3 15.Qa8+! Kd7 16.Qxb7+ Ke8 17.Nb5 Be7 18.c5 Qe5 I'm not sure what you intended Black to play here, but presumably not 14...Qe5 which would be my choice. Now I can't find more than a draw for White. I'm sorry, I corrected my post now, it should be 14...e6. 14...Qe5 is another way to go, when after 15.c5 White has good winning chances. Gawgaws stockfish's engine suggestion of 12...Nf6 looks best and equal, at least for the moment I don't see anything winning for White. Why 3.Nf3?, I happen to think it's a good line, no better or worse than 3.Nc3 and probably less exhaustively analysed. By the way what is this stockfish engine? Some googlin claimed it to be an illegal Rybka clone created in the ukraine by unscrupulous software competitors, but I find this hard to believe.  Tops :)

(1. e4  d5  2. exd5  Qxd5  3. Nf3  Bg4  4. Be2  Nc6  5. d4  O-O-O  6. c4  Qf5  7. Be3  Bxf3  8. Bxf3  Nxd4  9. Bxd4  Qe6+  10. Be2  c5 11.Qa4 cxd4 12.Qxa7)
In the other thread I had already written:

linksspringer wrote on 06/16/08 at 23:19:59:

I now believe best is 12...Nf6, when after 13.Na3 black can choose between taking the draw with 13...d3 14.Qa8+ and repetition, or play on with 13...Qa6.

So I agree with you there.
Stockfish is legal, the controversy is about engines like Firebird, Robbolito etc.
Thanks for the game references and sorry to hear about your database troubles! When I have some more time I'll look into them and compare with my notes from 2008.

Thanks links,

I will post on 11.Nd2 and 11.Nc3 when I eventually get everything sorted, 11.0-0 and 11.Qc2 also deserve attention although they may transpose.

In the line 11.Qa4 cd4 12.Qxa7 Nf6 there maybe some mileage in 13.0-0 despite the engines initial scepticism.

So despite my misgivings about the odd looking 10...c5 it does indeed seem playable, although the jury is still out on whether its any good.

Hopefully some further tournament tests with the move will help clarify matters.

Tops :)

TopNotch wrote on 05/23/10 at 15:42:46:

Thanks links, I will post on 11.Nd2 and 11.Nc3 when I eventually get everything sorted, 11.0-0 and 11.Qc2 also deserve attention although they may transpose. In the line 11.Qa4 cd4 12.Qxa7 Nf6 there maybe some mileage in 13.0-0 despite the engines initial scepticism. So despite my misgivings about the odd looking 10...c5 it does indeed seem playable, although the jury is still out on whether its any good. Hopefully some further tournament tests with the move will help clarify matters. Tops :)

11.Qa4 cd4 12.Qxa7 Nf6 13.O-O!?: I see, like the variations you posted earlier, but with the extra tempo Nf6 for Black. I agree the engine's initial evaluation is too optimistic for Black. My impression is that Black should not try to win, but try to force White into a repetition.

I had a look again at 11.Nc3, 11.Nd2 and 11.Qc2, but couldn't find anything promising for White. I'll wait for your variations here.
However, 11.0-0 perhaps deserves closer attention. Rough impression:
* 11...Rxd4 12.Qe1!? Nf6 13.Nbd2 Rd6 14.Rb1 followed by b4, knight d2 to f3 or b3, if cxb4 then Qxb4.
edit: or 14.a3 and 15.b4 or perhaps even 14.b4!? When I try this against an engine it doesn't seem to appreciate it is playing without Rh8 and Bf8 until it is too late.
* 11...cxd4 12.Nbd2 followed by Nf3. I think this is a better version of 11.Qc2 cxd4 12.0-0. White gets a good grip on the centre before advancing queenside.
* 11...Nf6 12.Nbd2 transposes: 12...Rxd4 13.Qe1 or 12...cxd4 13.Nf3.

This is my mainline, White has nothing, except of a lost position.

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nf3 Bg4 4. Be2 Nc6 5. d4 O-O-O 6. c4 Qf5 7. Be3 Bxf3 8. Bxf3 Nxd4 9. Bxd4 Qe6+ 10. Be2 c5 11. Qa4 cxd4 12. Qxa7 Nf6 13. O-O Qxe2 14.Na3 Qe5 15. Nb5 e6 16. c5 Ng4 17. g3 Qb8 18. Qa4 Ne5 19. Na7+ Kc7 20. Nb5+ Kd7
21. Nxd4+ Ke7

What am I missing?

Well, 14.Qa8+ is still a draw, of course, but if there's nothing better then 13.0-0 is a bit pointless.

After 14.Na3 Qe5, maybe 15.c5 is a slight improvement because 15...Ng4 can be met by 16.f4. (After 15.Nb5 e6 16.c5 Ng4 17.f4 would lose to Bxc5.)

However, Black still looks better to me.

AlanG wrote on 05/25/10 at 19:05:40:

Well, 14.Qa8+ is still a draw, of course, but if there's nothing better then 13.0-0 is a bit pointless. After 14.Na3 Qe5, maybe 15.c5 is a slight improvement because 15...Ng4 can be met by 16.f4. (After 15.Nb5 e6 16.c5 Ng4 17.f4 would lose to Bxc5.) However, Black still looks better to me.

The time has come yet again to update this thread slightly, and as Gawgaw and yourself have already indicated, it appears that 11. Qa4 should lead to a draw. Still life is far from easy for Black, as White has other ways to actively pursue the initiative, even all the way into the endgame. For instance:

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nf3 Bg4 4. Be2 Nc6 5. d4 O-O-O 6. c4 Qf5 7. Be3 Bxf3 8. Bxf3 Nxd4 9. Bxd4 Qe6+ 10. Be2 c5 11. 0-0 [We have already examined 11. Qa4 to death, and will give that a rest unless some new discoveries come to light] 11...Rxd4 12. Qc2 [The alternative and possibly stronger 12. Qa4, sacrificing a piece, (seems we cannot escape this move) will be examined in a separate post] 12... Qe4 13.Qxe4 Rxe4 14.Nc3 Rd4 (14...Rf4 15.g3 Rf6 16.Bg4+ With an edge) 15.Nb5 Rd2 16.Bg4+ e6 17.Nxa7+ Kb8 18.Nb5 Rxb2 19.Rab1 Rxb1 20.Rxb1 Nf6 21.Bf3 Ne8 22.a4 Be7 23.a5 Bd8 24.Nc3 Nd6 25.a6 b6 26.Rd1+- Winning.

Comments, feedback and analyses welcome.

Tops :) 

14...Rh4 is perhaps better than 14...Rf4 since after 15.g3 Rh6 16.Bg4+ e6, 17.Ne4 is no longer a problem.

Alternatively, in your main line, 19...Rb4, and I think the following all lead to equality:

20.a3 Rxb1 (now that Ra3 is not possible) 21.Rxb1 Nf6 22.Bf3 b6 23.a4 Kc8 24.Na7+ Kc7 25.Nb5+ Kc8
20.Rxb4 cxb4 21.Rd1 Kc8 22.Na7+ Kc7 23.Nb5+ etc.
20.Rfd1 Kc8 etc.

But I agree that it's not that easy for Black. I'm fairly convinced now that 10...c5 is drawn, but I'm not sure I'd actually want to play it OTB.

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nf3 Bg4 4. Be2 Nc6 5. d4 O-O-O 6. c4 Qf5 7. Be3 Bxf3 8. Bxf3 Nxd4 9. Bxd4
Qe6+ 10. Be2 c5 11. O-O (11. Nd2 cxd4 12. O-O Qd7 =+) 11... Rxd4 (11... Nf6!? Maybe transposition, maybe more 12. Re1 (12. Qa4 cxd4 13. Bf3) 12... Rxd4 13. Qc2) (11... Nf6 12. Nd2 Rxd4 13. Qe1 =+) 12. Qc2 Qe4 (12... Nf6 13. Nc3 Qb6 14. b4 =) 13. Qxe4 Rxe4 14.Nc3 Rd4 15. Nb5 Rd2 16. Bg4+ e6 17. Nxa7+ Kb8 18. Nb5 Rxb2 19. Rab1 Rxb1 (19...Rb4 20. Rxb4 cxb4 21. Rd1=) 20. Rxb1 Nf6 21. Bf3 Ne8 22. a4 Be7 23. a5
Bd8 24. Nc3 Nd6 25. a6 b6 ?? (25... Bc7 +=) 26. Rd1 +-

6. ...Qh5!? - is it no viable option?

gewgaw wrote on 05/29/10 at 19:02:11:

6. ...Qh5!? - is it no viable option?

I think Qh5 is worth looking at - maybe with the idea 7.Be3 Nh6!? - but perhaps we should start a new thread?

AlanG wrote on 05/29/10 at 19:24:07:

gewgaw wrote on 05/29/10 at 19:02:11: 6. ...Qh5!? - is it no viable option? I think Qh5 is worth looking at - maybe with the idea 7.Be3 Nh6!? - but perhaps we should start a new thread?

Agreed, this thread is strictly concerned with the lines arising after 10...c5. Although I can fully appreciate Gawgaw's desire to move away from these positions, indeed any Scandanavian practitioner would, as playing for two results, i.e. loss or draw is hardly an inspiring task.

As promised the position after 10...c5 11. 0-0 Rxd4 12. Qa4! will be next up on the agenda, unless someone provides something more compelling in the meantime.

Till then God speed.

Tops :) 

Black may try 10...c5 11.0-0 h5!? (11...Rxd4 12.Qa4 =; 11...cxd4 12.c5!; 11...Nf6 12.Qa4 =; 11...Nh6 12.Qc2 cxd4 13.c5), e.g. 12.Bf3 (12.Nd2 Rxd4 13.Qe1 Qb6!) 12...Qa6 13.Nc3 (13.Nd2 Rxd4 14.Qe2 e6 15.Nb3 Rd7 16.Rad1 Nf6) 13...cxd4 14.Nb5 e5 15.Qe2 (15.Rc1) comp. But once more White has 12.Qa4 cxd4 13.Qxa7 to force a draw: 13...Qxe2 14.Qa8+ Kc7 15.Qa5+ Kd7 16.Qa4+ when 16...Ke6?! 17.Nc3 would be risky.

I would like to extend my sincerest gratitude and thanks to GM Gawain Jones for examining this line in his June update, while incorporating and crediting all the relevant and important analysis contained in this thread.

Those of you with subscriptions make sure not to miss it, while those of you without, well it's never too late to sign up. ;)

Tops :)