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Poll Poll
Question: Who are the top 10 French Players of all time?

I    
  12 (57.1%)
II    
  3 (14.3%)
III    
  1 (4.8%)
IV    
  1 (4.8%)
V    
  4 (19.0%)




Total votes: 21

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Top Ten French Players Poll (Read 3660 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Top Ten French Players Poll
08/26/05 at 22:54:29
 
Okay, the polling choices are very limited on this site (at least it has one though! Cheesy) so I have to set things up a little differently.

Don't worry about voting for groups, that was just to make the poll-bot happy.

Here's a list of some of the top French players of all time.  You get to set your own criteria, but please vote for
the top 5 French Players of all time, in order!


I will come around after we've collected ten sets of votes and tally them as follows:  1st Place votes get 10, 2nd 9, and so on.  After about ten people have voted, we can get a clearer idea of who's in the top ten.

If you want to vote for all ten, you may, but you don't have to.  In fact, if you vote for only one, that's fine too.   More than ten?  Sorry, only your top ten will count.


Botvinnik
Korchnoi
Uhlmann
Bareev
Morozevich
Volkov
Glek
Psakhis
Radjabov
Vaganian
Nimzovich
Smbat
P. Nikolic
Short
Petrosian
Spielmann
Rubinstein
Abrahamyan
V. Akobian
Akopian
Shirov
Ulibin
M. Gurevich
Timman
Stahlberg
Harding
Watson
Yusupov
Tarrasch
Alekhin
Kovocevic
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Top Ten French Players Poll
Reply #1 - 08/26/05 at 22:56:55
 
Okay, here's my top 5:

5.  Nimzovich
4.  Uhlmann
3.  Petrosian
2.  Korchnoi
1.  Botvinnik


I'll add up the points later, as I previously mentioned.
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MNb
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Re: Top Ten French Players Poll
Reply #2 - 08/27/05 at 01:46:24
 
1.Botvinnik (10 points)
2.Petrosjan
3.Uhlmann
4.Vaganjan
5.Spielmann
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Top Ten French Players Poll
Reply #3 - 08/27/05 at 01:50:20
 
Spielmann in the top 5???  What, is he a family member, or did he offer something in his will to anyone who would put him in some future best French players of all time???  What's in it for you?   Wink
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Re: Top Ten French Players Poll
Reply #4 - 08/27/05 at 05:44:30
 
My vote:

1. Nimzovitsch

2. Botvinnik

3. Uhlmann

4. Korchnoi
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Re: Top Ten French Players Poll
Reply #5 - 08/27/05 at 07:22:03
 
One's choice is dependent on which lines you prefer as black, and since the Armenian variation is the most interesting to me, I added Khalifman and put Vaganian on 4th. (Btw, is "Smbat" aka Lputian?)

1. Morozevich   
2. M. Gurevich
3. Botvinnik
4. Vaganian
5. Kortchnoi 
6. Psakhis
7. Khalifman
8. Short 
9. Timman 
10. Uhlmann
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Re: Top Ten French Players Poll
Reply #6 - 08/27/05 at 08:30:07
 
1. Korchnoi
2. Volkov
3. Morozevich
4. Uhlmann
5. Vaganian
6. Bareev (for his contribution  to the Burn variation!)
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Re: Top Ten French Players Poll
Reply #7 - 08/27/05 at 08:52:49
 
1. Uhlmann
2. Petrosian
3. Korchnoi
4. Volkov
5. Botvinnik
6. Radjabov
7. Morozevich
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« Last Edit: 08/27/05 at 16:28:38 by HgMan »  

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Re: Top Ten French Players Poll
Reply #8 - 08/27/05 at 09:11:45
 
1. Nimzovich (for practically inventing the Winawer)
2. Nimzovich (for practically inventing the Advance)
3. Botvinnik
4. Uhlmann
5. Korchnoi
6. Bareev
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woofwoof
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Re: Top Ten French Players Poll
Reply #9 - 08/27/05 at 14:51:49
 
1) Botvinnik
2) Petrosian
3) Korchnoi
4) Nimzowitsch
5) Uhlmann
6) Rubinstein

Nimzo & Rubinstein both invented lines but it was my top 3 who took the French to greater heights.
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MNb
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Re: Top Ten French Players Poll
Reply #10 - 08/27/05 at 17:03:13
 
Rubinstein did not invent 3...dxe4. The first Rubinstein game with 3...dxe4 (1903) saw him playing White ...
Before Rubinstein played it, Bird, Delmar and Blackburne played it amongst others. Another example is Steinitz-Lasker, WCh m 1894, 8th game.
Nimzovitsj did not invent the 3.e5. Greco, Staunton and especially Louis Paulsen preceded.
Finally Nimzo was certainly not the first to play 3...Bb4. Just two examples are Esser-Marshall, Amsterdam 1911 and Réti-Euwe, Amsterdam 1920.
Both Rubinstein and Nimzo played the French less often than Alekhine and Spielmann. They being important players of the French defense is just an urban chess legend.

Spielmann is on my list, because he was the first to decide a tournament with the French: Semmering 1926. Moreover he was the first to play 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4 5.e5 h6 6.Be3 on a regular base- a rather topical line these days.
Finally I simply always prefer Spielmann above Nimzo and Rubinstein. Grin
If it were a poll on say the QGD, Spielmann also be on my top 5  Wink
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Re: Top Ten French Players Poll
Reply #11 - 08/27/05 at 23:54:20
 
MNb,

You nitpicked over Rubinstein getting credit for the line that's named after him then say that Spielmann was the first to play a decisive game with the French in a tournament?  HUH?????  I guess matches and tournaments that happened before Spielmann don't count.   Tongue

Cheers!
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Re: Top Ten French Players Poll
Reply #12 - 08/28/05 at 00:27:56
 
Orion wrote on 08/27/05 at 17:03:13:
Rubinstein did not invent 3...dxe4. The first Rubinstein game with 3...dxe4 (1903) saw him playing White ...
Before Rubinstein played it, Bird, Delmar and Blackburne played it amongst others. Another example is Steinitz-Lasker, WCh m 1894, 8th game.
Nimzovitsj did not invent the 3.e5. Greco, Staunton and especially Louis Paulsen preceded.
Finally Nimzo was certainly not the first to play 3...Bb4. Just two examples are Esser-Marshall, Amsterdam 1911 and Réti-Euwe, Amsterdam 1920.
Both Rubinstein and Nimzo played the French less often than Alekhine and Spielmann. They being important players of the French defense is just an urban chess legend.


Thanks for the bit of info here MNb. But it does seem rather odd that the 1st 3..Bb4 was not invented by Nimzo but yet named after him (before being changed to Winawer) The same argument applies to Rubinstein.

Oh well.... I guess the explanation for the above is something like the following example. The NimzoIndian - Leningrad is now known as the Spassky System. Spassky didnt invent it, but played it a lot in his younger days & won some good games with it.
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Top Ten French Players Poll
Reply #13 - 08/28/05 at 04:05:00
 
In reply to MNb's assertion that Spielmann was the first to "decide a tournament with the French".

I thought it would be rather difficult to prove one way or another, but I couldn't sleep after a tournament today (I went 5-1, losing only to GM Dashzevege Shavaradorj (2514 USCF) who won with a perfect score).  I made a brief research into the topic and found some interesting last-round games and matches that featured the French in decidingl games:


Bird-Staunton, London Match Tournament, 1852
Burn-Blackburne, 1862
Paulsen against a no-name, Vienna 1873
Steinitz-Chigorin, St. Petersburg,1879
Steinitz-Winawer, Vienna play-off 1882



I got bored with the task pretty quickly, but Spielmann didn't play his first French until 1905.  
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« Last Edit: 08/28/05 at 21:15:09 by Smyslov_Fan »  

"This ending is normally drawn unless there is a good reason why not."   ~J. Speelman
 
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MNb
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Re: Top Ten French Players Poll
Reply #14 - 08/28/05 at 17:15:17
 
@Smyslov_Fan
LOL! As I was bluffing, I was very curious if anyone would take up the challenge to prove me wrong. You will understand, that no reason is too bad for me to put my hero on any list.  Wink

I do not know the first four games. Concerning Steinitz-Winawer, Wien ploff 1882, Winawer indeed played the French - but did not win the minimatch.
Hey Smyslov_Fan, I suspect that you are bluffing like me.  8)

@Woofwoof:
I do not know the explanation. But I do know, that Nimzo played the French only one time before 1910 and 7 times before WW-1. Nimzo was an arrogant guy with a big mouth (until he got humiliated by Alekhine in the early 30-ies), but as Rubinstein was not, this does not explain anything.
It is another fact, that Rubinstein played 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxe4 (the Burn Variation) considerably more often than 3...dxe4.
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