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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Between Caro and French...What would you choose? (Read 24811 times)
bragesjo
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Re: Between Caro and French...What would you choose?
Reply #38 - 02/08/10 at 21:25:31
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One should pic an opening that one like the arising position most, not what other peaple think. Play thought some GM level Caro-Kann games and some GM level French games and see what kind of positions you would prefere.

For my own part of opening choises, I choosed Dragon by accident (my first opening book I read at library was a swedish translated version of "Chess openings" by Mike Basman where Dragon was feutered and I the first book I bought was "Opening repertour for attacking player" ,not to be recommended these days, where Dragon was feautered) but I realy liked the double edged positions that arose. When I became older I prefered more solid lines as both sides but instead of switching openings I was lazy on the black part and instead switched to more solid lines within both Dragon system as well as in my Dutch defence.
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: Between Caro and French...What would you choose?
Reply #37 - 02/06/10 at 00:53:17
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MNb wrote on 02/05/10 at 22:59:10:
BPaulsen wrote on 02/05/10 at 04:06:49:
Caro-Kann, because I enjoy the resulting positions more. No dramatic reasoning.


That's the best reason. Mine is worse: the French because I want to play 1.d4 e6 as well.

@Antillian: I was well over 30 before I considered taking up the French.


As a French player during the hey-day of the Tromp being able to use 1. d4 e6 put a serious damper on all of the Tromp players, and the one that actually wheeled out 2. e4 got ran over when he didn't know Winawer Poison Pawn theory as well as he should have, (2000 USCF/FIDE rated player). Aside from that 2. c4 or 2. Nf3 was nearly always played, which was fine for a NID/QID player.

The biggest upside to having played the French for so long is picking up the Caro-Kann was just easy (strategical themes are often similar), and it's not like you just forget something you played for years.
  

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Re: Between Caro and French...What would you choose?
Reply #36 - 02/06/10 at 00:44:30
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I've played both the Caro-Kann and the French.  I gave up the Caro-Kann after drawing two must-win games as Black against "A" players who played for the draw from the first move.  (The tournament situation would have dictated that they also play for the win.  Oh well. I guess ratings are more important to some than others.)* 

I have since learned some techniques to battle those "A" players, but the French has always given me more hope for a win in critical situations than the Caro.

I now have four openings in my repertoire, the Caro, the French, the Sicilian Taimanov and now the Scheveningen.  I haven't played the French or the Caro-Kann much in the last year or so.

*As an interesting aside, one of those players has become a published chess author!
  
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Re: Between Caro and French...What would you choose?
Reply #35 - 02/05/10 at 22:59:10
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BPaulsen wrote on 02/05/10 at 04:06:49:
Caro-Kann, because I enjoy the resulting positions more. No dramatic reasoning.


That's the best reason. Mine is worse: the French because I want to play 1.d4 e6 as well.

@Antillian: I was well over 30 before I considered taking up the French.
  

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Re: Between Caro and French...What would you choose?
Reply #34 - 02/05/10 at 16:13:01
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Antillian wrote on 02/05/10 at 15:06:55:
Well I choose the Caro...but of course, I have no experience with the French, so my choice is irrelevant. 

But I have always had the impression that French players were typically persons who learnt that opening while still in pampers and latched on to it for the rest of their lives often playing it  exclusively.

On the other hand, persons were more likely to pick up the Caro-Kann later in their chess career and were more likely to combine it with another defence.

Are my impressions wrong?


I played the Caro Kann from beginner to about 1850. Switched to the French after that, and have been playing it ever since. Now hoping to reintroduce the CK into my repertoire so that I'll have two weapons against 1.e4.
  

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Re: Between Caro and French...What would you choose?
Reply #33 - 02/05/10 at 16:08:23
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Except of Botvinnik no worldchampion played the french exclusively and that was decades ago. In my eyes a clear sign, that the french isnt considered as a reliable defence. At amateur level, it´s possible to play even the latvian regularly.
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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Antillian
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Re: Between Caro and French...What would you choose?
Reply #32 - 02/05/10 at 15:06:55
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Well I choose the Caro...but of course, I have no experience with the French, so my choice is irrelevant. 

But I have always had the impression that French players were typically persons who learnt that opening while still in pampers and latched on to it for the rest of their lives often playing it  exclusively.

On the other hand, persons were more likely to pick up the Caro-Kann later in their chess career and were more likely to combine it with another defence.

Are my impressions wrong?
  

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Re: Between Caro and French...What would you choose?
Reply #31 - 02/05/10 at 04:06:49
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Pingudon wrote on 04/15/09 at 17:23:40:
Let´s say that someones ask you to choose a defensive system for the rest of your life for you to reach 2500. He is going to buy books, cd, pay your tournaments but you only can choose French OR Caro. What would you choose and why? Wink


Caro-Kann, because I enjoy the resulting positions more. No dramatic reasoning.
  

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Re: Between Caro and French...What would you choose?
Reply #30 - 02/05/10 at 00:53:40
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I actually have experience with the QGA - via 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.cxd4 Nc6 6.Nf3 e6 7.Nc3 Qd8 8.Bc4.
  

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Re: Between Caro and French...What would you choose?
Reply #29 - 02/04/10 at 14:13:22
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MNb wrote on 02/03/10 at 23:52:39:

I love both positions with IQP's ...


Well in that case, I commend the QGA to you.
  

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Re: Between Caro and French...What would you choose?
Reply #28 - 02/03/10 at 23:52:39
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HoemberChess wrote on 02/03/10 at 12:12:40:

A question: 
Would you be a french-fan with the same enthusiasm if in every single game your opponent played 3.exd5...?


If that were the case I be much more enthusiastic. I love both positions with IQP's (White plays c2-c4) and with opposite castling (White does not).
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Between Caro and French...What would you choose?
Reply #27 - 02/03/10 at 21:26:32
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Mythos wrote on 02/03/10 at 20:10:16:

...
If white players were somehow banned from playing 3.Nc3 against the French, this whole French vs. CK question would be much easier for me  Wink


Smiley I believe you.
Just a careless 3.Nd2 and you already begin to think you can do "anything" you want to...
  

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Re: Between Caro and French...What would you choose?
Reply #26 - 02/03/10 at 20:10:16
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I'd pick the French (wasn't an easy decision). For me at least, the French has more sting, even though I find it less safe than the CK. Also, I have more control over the nature of the middlegame.

If white players were somehow banned from playing 3.Nc3 against the French, this whole French vs. CK question would be much easier for me  Wink
  

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Re: Between Caro and French...What would you choose?
Reply #25 - 02/03/10 at 17:04:38
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"don't think so. I consider that the French is a better learning tool as I said before. There are not much more pawn structures in the CK than in the French.

CK,
1. Give up the center structure
2. gxf6 structure
3. exf6 structure
4. Carlsbad structure + Transformation into isolani as black
5. Panov, isolani, structure
6. Gurgenidze structure
7. Advance structure

French
1. Petroff structure
2. Advance structure
3. gxf6 structure
4. Doubled pawns structure (Mac and Winawer)
5. Tarrasch, isolani, structure
6. Sicilian structure (KIA)
7. Exchange, isolani, structue (4.c4)


You are not losing too much I think."


This was a blindfolded statement and I won't be part of this. While I don't agree with the list I am sure whatever I'd add to it you will add something else to the French list.

2. "gxf6 structure" ??? --just an example of a structure which depends on _Black_, not White...
6. "Gurgenidze stucture" ??? -- just another example.. Why is this on the list??
etc
etc
(There are many more stuctures in the C-K which are probable and depend on White.)
Plus, you seem to have forgotten to state 
1)which structure depends on White and which on Black
2)the probabilities of reaching them

It is a fact that Caro-Kann positions can be reached via numerous other openings (Sicilian, Nimzo-Indian, Queen's Gambit Accepted, English, etc), while the same cannot be said about the French. The C-K is said to be "The opening with many faces." It is said by a GM and somebody here may recall his name. (perhaps Gligoric!?) Have you ever heard anything like this about the French?!



"Quote:
the caro exchange is more imbalancing, you can't deny that.


Yes it is. White has more options to win in the CK exchange than in the French exchange."

??
The same can be said about either side and if I recall correctly you argued that French gives Black more winning chances...



bragesjo made a point. 
If this were a C-K forum, then everyone would say C-K. But since there is no such thing...
  

as
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*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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bragesjo
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Re: Between Caro and French...What would you choose?
Reply #24 - 02/03/10 at 16:23:54
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Since this a a forum for french everyone should say french. However I would say sicilian since at ameutur levels anti sicilians are common and in many lines black gets a position that looks either like a improved Caro Kann (advanced variation with a c5 played in one move) or improved French(advanced where bishop can move outside pawnchange or white has played pawn to f4 variation) depending an preference..

About French defence, some years ago at local club there was an interesting french game. The higher rated player was not in mood to either fight or play at all so he played the boring exchange variation. Althought the game eventuelly became a draw the lower rated player somehow managed to unbalance the postion and the position became sharp before all pieces got exchanged and draw agreed.
  
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