Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Dembo's variation against the BDG 3...Nxe4 (Read 16105 times)
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Offline


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 916
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: Dembo's variation against the BDG 3...Nxe4
Reply #20 - 05/22/10 at 22:58:54
Post Tools
It depends on what level of orthodoxy you mean by "unorthodox", but I think the difference in orthodoxy between the BDG and, say, the Danish is that the BDG gets scorned a lot more by high-level players and its established theory rarely makes its way into mainstream openings works.   In practice the two openings are probably used with a similar frequency at similar levels of play.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10778
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dembo's variation against the BDG 3...Nxe4
Reply #19 - 05/22/10 at 21:05:51
Post Tools
I don't see anything unorthodox in gambiting a pawn for a lead in development, some open lines and central domination. You would not call the Danish, the Evans and the KG unorthodox either, would you? They have an equally rich history in WCh matches.  Tongue
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ChevyBanginStyle
Full Member
***
Offline


2 \infty & *CRUNCH*

Posts: 238
Joined: 01/03/10
Re: Dembo's variation against the BDG 3...Nxe4
Reply #18 - 05/22/10 at 02:39:12
Post Tools
The BDG is not orthodox! Now you're just giving Lev a hard time for no reason.. Oh, I'm sorry - my bad - I forgot about the rich history of the reputable Blackmar-Diemer in world championship matches. Tongue
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10778
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dembo's variation against the BDG 3...Nxe4
Reply #17 - 05/21/10 at 16:06:52
Post Tools
Neither the BDG nor 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.f3 is unorthodox. And the exchange manoeuvre Bh6 is as old as the Pirc itself.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1397
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dembo's variation against the BDG 3...Nxe4
Reply #16 - 05/21/10 at 15:46:40
Post Tools
No, I can handle both the Sicilian and open games. I just prefer unorthodox openings.
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
tafl
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 380
Location: Norway
Joined: 05/27/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dembo's variation against the BDG 3...Nxe4
Reply #15 - 05/21/10 at 12:17:41
Post Tools
Quote:
Maybe your opponents castle without thinking, mine don't.


The secret to success in chess is to choose your opponents carefully.
  

A computer once beat me at chess but it was no match for me at kick boxing - Emo Philips
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10778
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dembo's variation against the BDG 3...Nxe4
Reply #14 - 05/21/10 at 10:12:24
Post Tools
Gambit wrote on 05/21/10 at 06:34:42:
Actually, the move order should be 1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 d6 3 e4 g6 4 Be3 Bg7 5 Qd2 00 6 Bh6. In other words, 
getting an early e2-e4 first by White.


Then Black has 5...c5, 3...e5 and the countergambit 3...c5 4.d5 e6. Maybe your opponents castle without thinking, mine don't. Still I begin to wonder more and more why you don't just play 1.e4. This very line belongs to the Pirc: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.f3.
Perhaps you are afraid of meeting the Sicilian and Open Games?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1397
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dembo's variation against the BDG 3...Nxe4
Reply #13 - 05/21/10 at 06:34:42
Post Tools
Actually, the move order should be 1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 d6 3 e4 g6 4 Be3 Bg7 5 Qd2 00 6 Bh6. In other words, 
getting an early e2-e4 first by White.

I was analysing without sight of board, so a typo crept in. As for the line 1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 c5, I usually play
3 d5 here. Of late I discovered a few real interesting moves here, but will keep my analyses secret. Suffice to say I beat some strong players on Internet Chess Club with this novelty.

As for 1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 d5 3  e4 e6 4 f4 c5 5 c3! Note that this move allows a nice pawn chain. 5...Nc6 6 Nf3
Qb6 7 Qb3 =

Point is, this whole line is a transposition into the French Defence. I have played it quite a few times as White, with good results.

Now, you ask about 3...Nbd7, 4...e5. I assume you talk about the line 1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 d6 3 e4 Nbd7 4 Be3 e5 5 d5

Pretty even. I have played against this line many times. Once I find some of my old games, I will post them here.
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: Dembo's variation against the BDG 3...Nxe4
Reply #12 - 03/26/10 at 23:03:39
Post Tools
Against 2.f3, a simple antidote is 2...d5 3.e4 e6 when White has a bad French because of the counter-productive move f3. If 4.Nc3, 4...Bb4 has been played by Fedorowicz, but after 4...c5! White is already fighting for equality.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Net Warrior
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


1.e4 best by test...Bobby
Fischer

Posts: 45
Location: Long Island, NY
Joined: 08/15/09
Gender: Male
Re: Dembo's variation against the BDG 3...Nxe4
Reply #11 - 03/26/10 at 19:27:53
Post Tools
Gambit wrote on 04/26/09 at 05:45:59:
This is ridiculous! First of all, 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nc3 d5 3 e4 Nxe4 4 Nxe4 dxe4
is not the BDG. Rather, it is the Hubsch Gambit.

The stem game is Hubsch-Tartakower, Vienna, 1922. Hubsch won that game.

Second, I would just sidestep Dembo's preparation with 2 f3, avoiding the Hubsch Gambit altogether. Now, does Yelena Dembo feel like accepting the challenge and going into a Blackmar-Diemer with 2...d5 3 e4 dxe4 4 Nc3 ?


Lane includes the Hubsch is his BDG book.  I mean no offense but you seem upset over a fact.  The fact is that the Hubsch disallows you pet lines.  Isn't that the point of opening preparation...to get positions you know and like and your opponent knows less and likes less?  There are pros and cons to any opening move.  Why shouldn't the black Indian player take advantage of the fact that the Hubsch is favorable for him?  He'd be foolish not to IMHO.  Goodness knows there are enough unfavorable facts for the Indian player to contend with later on.  Roll Eyes  BTW, aren't you avoiding others' pet lines by playing the BDG in the 1st place?  Again, sincerely, I mean no offense.   
  

I play therefore I am (USCF "A")
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
flaviddude
Senior Member
****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 329
Location: Australia
Joined: 01/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dembo's variation against the BDG 3...Nxe4
Reply #10 - 04/29/09 at 09:02:03
Post Tools
MatrixX wrote on 04/26/09 at 00:18:00:
Hi everyone,

after reading Yelena Dembo's book about fighting the Anti-Kings Indians i'm asking all you BDG-players, how you react against 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 Nxe4 and what you think of that system?


tHAT IS CALLED THE Hubsch Gambit. I think that it is a load of old cobblers for white.
  

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10778
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dembo's variation against the BDG 3...Nxe4
Reply #9 - 04/28/09 at 02:25:33
Post Tools
Gambit wrote on 04/27/09 at 05:18:07:
After 1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 g6 3 Be3 Bg7 4 Qd2 00 we have a Pirc Defense. Personally, I prefer to exchange the pesky Bg7 via Bh6! as soon as possible. This prevents any cheapo tricks on the long a1-h8 diagonal and confuses the vast majority of my opponents. Oh, the Bg7 is gone! Now what to do? Trust me, not everyone knows!


Any decent Pirc-player knows and that is something I know from my own experience. One of the opening lines I really know something about is the Argentinean Attack 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f3 followed by 5.Be3 and 6.Qd2. I have played and studied it for more than 25 years. A few short remarks about it.
1) this move order is imprecise because Black will not castle if he has looked into a book on the Pirc for more than 5 seconds. (S)he will play b7-b5 and Qd8-a5 instead. The black king is safer in the centre.
2) so these days White choses another move order (4.Be3) and only plays f2-f3 after Black has castled. I have scored more than 80% with this.
3) after 4.f3 Black does not even need to play ...Bg7; again ...b5 is superior.

Conclusion: 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 g6 3.Be3 (are you sure you don't mean 3.e4 first?) d6 4.Qd2 Black plays c6. Oh! 5.Bh6 is a loss of tempo! What to do! Trust me, even LDZ does not know. At least he does not tell us; as usual founding his conclusions on at least one inferior move by Black (0-0?!).
Even worse - maybe ...0-0 is not inferior at all. I refer to Vigus' work on it for more details.

And that's the first justification of 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 g6!? - if White plays Nc3 Black gets a good version of the Pirc. So White should enter the Sämisch. I imagine that quite a few KID-players will be very happy with that.

Another suggestion: 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 d6 3...Nbd7 and 4...e5. Oh! The idea Be3, Qd2, Bh6 loses a piece! What to do! LDZ is on a loss!
Anyhow, this is (or 2...c5) is what a player as Black should do if (s)he wants to enter the Hübsch.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MatrixX
Junior Member
**
Offline


carpe diem!

Posts: 66
Joined: 02/21/09
Re: Dembo's variation against the BDG 3...Nxe4
Reply #8 - 04/27/09 at 12:55:17
Post Tools
Dear Gambit,

can give please any lines in the variation 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 d5 3.e4 c5 4.e5 Nfd7 5.c3 Nc6 that proof, that White gets the edge?
I'm looking forward to discuss this variation like also the 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 Nxe4 4.Nxe4 dxe4 line Wink

by the way, what is your account on ICC?, do you also have account on playchess.com?
  

FIDE ELO: 2274, 19 years old
student of mathematics and economics, working as chess-trainer, especially in openings!
http://www.chess.com/coach/christoph-tiemann
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1397
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dembo's variation against the BDG 3...Nxe4
Reply #7 - 04/27/09 at 05:18:07
Post Tools
After 1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 g6 3 Be3 Bg7 4 Qd2 00 we have a Pirc Defense. Personally, I prefer to exchange the pesky Bg7 via Bh6! as soon as possible. This prevents any cheapo tricks on the long a1-h8 diagonal and confuses the vast majority of my opponents. Oh, the Bg7 is gone! Now what to do? Trust me, not everyone knows!

With regard to 1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 c5, the move 3 d5 is perfectly playable. I have played against both 2...c5 and 2...g6, so I know what to do here.

Now, Matrixx's suggestion about the French looks good. However, I have played against this line many times myself. This isn't anything that is not covered in books about the French Defense or opening databases. A good knowledge of that should be enough to give White the edge.

I am talking about 1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 d5 3 e4 c5 4 e5 Nfd7 5 c3 Nc6, of course. In fact, this line is good for White, since the c3-pawn supplements the White defense of d4. In other lines, such as 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nc3 d5 3 e4 e6, that is not possible, because the Nc3 blocks the c2-pawn.

[Rude remark removed by Markovich]

Finally, my lines are well-named, because it was I who invented or popularized them. If you have a problem with that, then don't you invent a few gambits or lines yourself? Then you can name it all you want, however you want.

Oh, wait... I think I have some games against Yelena Dembo on the ICC... with the BDG!

Will post these next time.
« Last Edit: 04/29/09 at 13:57:29 by Markovich »  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
MatrixX
Junior Member
**
Offline


carpe diem!

Posts: 66
Joined: 02/21/09
Re: Dembo's variation against the BDG 3...Nxe4
Reply #6 - 04/26/09 at 23:48:09
Post Tools
against 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 d5 3.e4 what is about playing 3...c5 
4.e5 Nfd7 5.c3 Nc6 looks like a very good version of the french while 
4.Nc3 cxd4 5.Qxd4 Nc6 6.Bb5 Bd7 7.Bxc6 Bxc6 8.e5 Nd7 known to be good for Black is


1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 Nxe4 4.Nxe4 dxe4 5.Bf4 wasn't covered by Dembo, i would suggest the following play: 5...e6 6.Qd2 Bd6 7.0-0-0 and now Nd7! was seen in a corr-game, the idea is 8.f3 Nf6! not to allow white to get his usual quick kingside development
  

FIDE ELO: 2274, 19 years old
student of mathematics and economics, working as chess-trainer, especially in openings!
http://www.chess.com/coach/christoph-tiemann
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo