ChessPub Forum - English 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Cc6 3.Ag2 Cf6 4.Cc3 Ac5

mishy

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English 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Cc6 3.Ag2 Cf6 4.Cc3 Ac5
05/25/09 at 00:21:43

Hi!
I am a English Opening fan but i always experience many difficulties in the line 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Cc6 3.Ag2 Cf6 4.Cc3 Ac5.
Can anyone explain me an easy way to retain some opening advantage as white?
I intended to play as Tony Kosten explains in his faboulous book " Dynamic English " and always end in an inferior position.
Thanks!!!

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Scott Junior Member Offline Why did I just move that?! Posts: 62 Mississippi Gender:	Re: English 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Cc6 3.Ag2 Cf6 4.Cc3 Ac5 Reply #1 - 05/25/09 at 02:36:50 I assume C stands for knight and A for bishop?
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mishy YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 2	Re: English 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Cc6 3.Ag2 Cf6 4.Cc3 Ac5 Reply #2 - 05/25/09 at 17:55:32 Yes, Iam sorry C means knight and A means bishop. I am from Spain and this is the way we write chess annotations. Thanks and hope you answer me soon!
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Bromstein YaBB Newbies Offline Greetings Posts: 44	Re: English 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Cc6 3.Ag2 Cf6 4.Cc3 Ac5 Reply #3 - 05/26/09 at 04:41:40 I mean to remember that Kosten advocates two lines against it. early a3, e3, Sge2, d3, b4, Kh2 and a later f4/g4 or lines with Kd5 instead of f4 Hope that helps
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kylemeister

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Re: English 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Cc6 3.Ag2 Cf6 4.Cc3 Ac5
Reply #4 - 05/26/09 at 05:21:45

The question as asked seems unanswerable, but I'll just mention that the line in question always reminds me of this game, which was given as a sort of model game for White in a book by Suetin a number of decades ago.

[Event "Bucharest"]
[Site "Bucharest"]
[Date "1954.??.??"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Kortschnoj,Viktor"]
[Black "Szabo,Stefan"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "A25"]
1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 Bc5 4.Bg2 0-0 5.e3 Re8 6.Nge2 Nc6 7.0-0 d6 8.d4 Bb6
9.h3 Bf5 10.d5 Nb8 11.g4 Bd7 12.Ng3 h6 13.Kh2 a5 14.f4 exf4 15.exf4 Nh7 16.g5 Na6
17.gxh6 Qh4 18.hxg7 Nf6 19.f5 Be3 20.Nce4 Nxe4 21.Nxe4 Bxc1 22.Rxc1 Nc5 23.Qg4 Rxe4 24.Bxe4 Qxg4
25.hxg4 Nxe4 26.Rce1 Nc5 27.f6 Re8 28.Rxe8+ Bxe8 29.Re1 Ba4 30.Re3 1-0

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bennetz

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Re: English 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Cc6 3.Ag2 Cf6 4.Cc3 Ac5
Reply #5 - 07/09/09 at 11:45:00

kylemeister wrote on 05/26/09 at 05:21:45:

The question as asked seems unanswerable, but I'll just mention that the line in question always reminds me of this game, which was given as a sort of model game for White in a book by Suetin a number of decades ago.

[Event "Bucharest"]
[Site "Bucharest"]
[Date "1954.??.??"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Kortschnoj,Viktor"]
[Black "Szabo,Stefan"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "A25"]
1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 Bc5 4.Bg2 0-0 5.e3 Re8 6.Nge2 Nc6 7.0-0 d6 8.d4 Bb6
9.h3 Bf5 10.d5 Nb8 11.g4 Bd7 12.Ng3 h6 13.Kh2 a5 14.f4 exf4 15.exf4 Nh7 16.g5 Na6
17.gxh6 Qh4 18.hxg7 Nf6 19.f5 Be3 20.Nce4 Nxe4 21.Nxe4 Bxc1 22.Rxc1 Nc5 23.Qg4 Rxe4 24.Bxe4 Qxg4
25.hxg4 Nxe4 26.Rce1 Nc5 27.f6 Re8 28.Rxe8+ Bxe8 29.Re1 Ba4 30.Re3 1-0

In this line isn't 5. ... d5 good for Black?

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kylemeister

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Re: English 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Cc6 3.Ag2 Cf6 4.Cc3 Ac5
Reply #6 - 07/09/09 at 19:46:56

bennetz wrote on 07/09/09 at 11:45:00:

kylemeister wrote on 05/26/09 at 05:21:45:

The question as asked seems unanswerable, but I'll just mention that the line in question always reminds me of this game, which was given as a sort of model game for White in a book by Suetin a number of decades ago.

[Event "Bucharest"]
[Site "Bucharest"]
[Date "1954.??.??"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Kortschnoj,Viktor"]
[Black "Szabo,Stefan"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "A25"]
1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 Bc5 4.Bg2 0-0 5.e3 Re8 6.Nge2 Nc6 7.0-0 d6 8.d4 Bb6
9.h3 Bf5 10.d5 Nb8 11.g4 Bd7 12.Ng3 h6 13.Kh2 a5 14.f4 exf4 15.exf4 Nh7 16.g5 Na6
17.gxh6 Qh4 18.hxg7 Nf6 19.f5 Be3 20.Nce4 Nxe4 21.Nxe4 Bxc1 22.Rxc1 Nc5 23.Qg4 Rxe4 24.Bxe4 Qxg4
25.hxg4 Nxe4 26.Rce1 Nc5 27.f6 Re8 28.Rxe8+ Bxe8 29.Re1 Ba4 30.Re3 1-0

In this line isn't 5. ... d5 good for Black?

It looks interesting, but I'm inclined to think it should be better for White. I know of this ...d5 being played when Black has ...Nc6 in instead of ...0-0, and I would suspect that the ...0-0 version is worse. E.g. 6. cd c6 7. d4 ed 8. ed Re8+ 9. Nge2 Bb6 10. Bg5 seems plausible and promising.

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Sleepy kitten

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Re: English 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Cc6 3.Ag2 Cf6 4.Cc3 Ac5
Reply #7 - 07/10/09 at 14:05:30

In this line I would like to give a warning about a counter-attack an opponent had learnt especially for me.

1. c4 e5 2. g3 Nc6 3. Bg2 Bc5 4. Nc3 a6 5. a3 (maybe this move isn't necessary) 5... d6 6. e3 Ba7 7. Nge2 Nge7 (maybe I should have begun to smell the rat) 8. O-O h5 and it looks like Black has agressive play on the kingside. 9. h4 Be6 10. b3 Qd7 11. Kh2 and my opponent was kind to play 11...g5? whereafter 12. Nd5 (12. Ne4! was even better) he blundered a queen with 12...O-O-O?? 13. Nf6 and gave me my first victory against a 2100+ (although I managed to give him much counterplay).

Nevertheless, this plan looks dangerous ; maybe White should delay castling.

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Annihilator

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Re: English 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Cc6 3.Ag2 Cf6 4.Cc3 Ac5
Reply #8 - 07/18/09 at 21:49:18

Kosten's 5.a3 is not needed as 5.e3 d5?! is not a threat at all (turn on any engine and its been covered on chesspublishing of course). 5 a3 wastes a tempo which can lead to problems in whites development as Black can get Bf5 and Qd7 in quickly.

Play 5.e3 and don't worry about a3 until you are castled and any Bh3 plans are thwarted (even then a3 can still be a waste of time since other plans are available then a b4 launch).

Mihail Marin's Chessbase cd on 1.c4 e5 covers this line well. If I remember correctly Nigel Davies new CBFT also covers it. Anyway if Tony came out with a 2nd edition of his legendary Flank Openings book this is one thing I would change.

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GMTonyKosten

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Re: English 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Cc6 3.Ag2 Cf6 4.Cc3 Ac5
Reply #9 - 07/18/09 at 22:02:07

Annihilator wrote on 07/18/09 at 21:49:18:

Kosten's 5.a3 is not needed as 5.e3 d5?! is not a threat at all (turn on any engine and its been covered on chesspublishing of course). 5 a3 wastes a tempo which can lead to problems in whites development as Black can get Bf5 and Qd7 in quickly.

I'm not so sure. Certainly White can play 5.e3 (as per the Grischuk game I analysed on ChessPub) but there were a couple of lines where I thought Black might be OK.
As to 5.a3, I don't think there are any lines where White isn't doing well, and I always found it to be a useful move. Can you be more specific about the line with ...Bf5 and ...Qd7?
Incidentally, I never castle too early in these lines, there are always lots of useful moves White can make before he decides to commit his king. Wink

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Klick

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Re: English 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Cc6 3.Ag2 Cf6 4.Cc3 Ac5
Reply #10 - 07/02/10 at 13:51:23

I believe he refers to the line 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bc5 5.a3 a6 6.e3 d6 7.Nge2 0-0 8.b4 Ba7 9.0-0 Bf5 which Marin gives in his book as example of why he doesnt fancy 5.a3

Quoting Marin on 5.a3 Quote:

There is no refutation of this move, but Black gets a valuable tempo to complete his development. Logically, White cannot hope for an opening advantage.

I`ve usually played 5.a3 myself.

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