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Caro-Kann exchange variation (Read 8044 times)
TN
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #15 - 10/04/09 at 11:52:08
 
The most important hole in ADP's book is their lack of coverage of 5...Qc7. In a chapter comprising 26 pages, DPA spend a mere page on what is, according to Kasparov's former coach Nikitin, 'the most promising move for Black'. They also fail to even mention 5...e5!?, which should equalise without much difficulty, as in Prandsetter-Plachetka, Naleczow 1979.

However, this is not the main 'problem' with this chapter of the book. The main problem is that their recommendation against 5...Qc7 fails to even equalise. They give 6.Ne2 (6.Bg5!? is a better try in my opinion although there is nothing wrong with 6.Ne2) Bg4 7.f3 (7.Qb3 Nf6 8.Bf4 Qd7 9.Ng3 g6 10.h3 Be6 equal, Nikitin) 7...Bd7 8.Bf4 e5! (8...Qc8 should also equalise, see the Nikitin survey) 9.de5 Ne5 10.Bc2?! (ADP's recommendation, but in fact White should prefer 10.0-0 Bd6 11.Na3! Ne7 12.Nb5 Bb5 13.Bb5 N5c6 14.Bd6 Qd6 with equality) 10...Bd6 11.Ba4 Bc6 12.0-0 Ne7 13.Nd4 and here ADP state 'White has a powerful outpost on d4 and stands slightly better'. The authors could not be further from the truth - in fact Black is the one who is better after 13...0-0 14.Bc2 N7g6 15.Bg6 hg6 16.Nd2 Rae8 =+, as pointed out by Nikitin.

I could go into details about how this influences the book, but I doubt this would influence Keano's opinion. So I will let the evidence speak for itself.

Edit: tracke said more or less the same thing, as I noticed only after posting.
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TN
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #16 - 10/04/09 at 12:29:38
 
Whilst on the subject of holes in COWE's coverage, here's a couple more:

a) 5...Nf6 6.Bf4 Bg4 7.Qb3 Na5 8.Qa4 Nc6 (! according to Nikitin; in my opinion 8...Bd7 is equally strong) 9.Nd2 (White can repeat the position with 9.Qb3, but in terms of the opening, this would be an admission of failure for White) 9...e6 10.Ngf3 Bd6 11.Ne5 0-0 12.Bg3 Qc7! 13.Ng4 (13.f4 Bf5!? 14.Bf5 ef5 15.0-0 Nh5 16.Qb5 Ne7 17.Rf3 a6 18.Qb3 Rfe8 19.Re1 Nf6 20.Rff1 Ne4 21.Ne4 fe4 22.Ng4 b5 23.Ne3 Qc6 24.Bh4 f6 equal) 13...Ng4 14.Qd1 Nf6 15.0-0 Bg3 16.hg3 e5 17.de5 Ne5 with counterplay, K.Muller-Agdestein, Germany Bundesliga 1998/99. This line should have been at least mentioned, but surprisingly this important move is not even considered. As other posters and myself have shown, it is a common tendency for ADP to ignore Black's most important options. See the posts in this thread and the other thread for the details.

b) 5...Nf6 6.Bf4 Bg4 7.Qb3 Na5 8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qc2 Rc8 is also not mentioned, but seems to equalise quite simply as in Enklaar-Donner, Netherlands Championship 1974, where in spite of Black's eventual defeat, White had absolutely no advantage after 13...Nd7!. At least ADP offer an improvement over the game Maroczy-Capablanca, Lake Hopatcong 1926, although 10...Rc8 with the idea of playing a later ...Nc4-d6 to reroute the knight to the centre looks like an improvement over ADP's rather compliant 10...Nb3.

c) 7...Qb6 is also not mentioned, although to be honest I don't have much faith in this line for Black after 8.Qb6 ab6 9.Na3 when White seems very comfortable in this ending.

d) 7...Qc8 8.Nd2 Bh5 (this bears similarities to tracke's idea of 5...Qc7 6.Ne2 Bg4 7.f3 Bh5 idea) is another relatively rare yet important sideline, where White has difficulties proving an advantage, e.g. 9.Ngf3 Bg6 10.Bb5 a6 11.Be2 e6 12.0-0 Be7 with equal chances according to Nikitin. I can understand ADP not including 10...Bh5 since White keeps a very small edge there, but this move should have been included to ensure that the repertoire was thorough.

e) Expanding on tracke's line B, after 10.Be3 Qd6! Nikitin provides the following analysis to prove that Black equalises: 11.Qb3 Bf5 12.Be2 Nf6 13.Bg5 h6 14.Bh4 Nh5 15.Rfe1 g5 16.Bg3 Ng3 17.hg3 a6 18.Nf1 e6 19.Ne3 Bg6 with equality.

Quote:
No I'll not let you off the hook that easy - the ...Re8 position is critical to the integrity of COWE so for that reason I suggested continuing with the analysis, which I will. We know the book doesnt cover all defences, my point is the ideas and other redeeming points more than make up for it. If you dont agree fine, but dont try and insist on upholding Watsons view of the book in every post, or if so be prepared to back it up. Its a far more interesting book than the usual "Play this" "Play that" database dumps produced these days which are basically a list of games copied from chessbase with an IM author throwing in a few wise-cracks.


The ...Re8 position is not as critical to the integrity of COWE as this 5...Qc7 line, as Nikitin's analysis shows. If you can find some improvements for White in the line occurring in Dzindzichashvili-Karpov, it will influence the theory of the line but not change the overall evaluation of the variation as being equal.

I don't believe the ideas compensate at all for not covering the best moves from Black's perspective. We may have to agree to disagree on that point. And I have already shown in previous posts that my opinion is not always the same as Watson's - to mention another example, I disagree with him on Aagaard's 'Attacking Manual'.

Quote:
Its a far more interesting book than the usual "Play this" "Play that" database dumps produced these days which are basically a list of games copied from chessbase with an IM author throwing in a few wise-cracks.


I don't know of any recent books (from 2008-now) by Everyman, Gambit, Quality Chess or Chess Stars which are 'database dumps'; can you give some examples of books from one of the 4 book publishing companies listed to substantiate your claims? For what it's worth, all but a very small number of the repertoire books I own combine explanations, games and analysis very lucidly.

PS: There are also a number of flaws in the coverage of the Grand Prix, primarily claiming a slight advantage in equal positions - if you want to discuss this then feel free to start a thread in the Anti-Sicilians section.

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #17 - 10/04/09 at 12:45:29
 
I dont know what book you have TN but that stuff with ...Na5 is known to be good for White since Fischer-Petrosian. 5...Qc7 is known to be respectable enough although its not so popular, we can discuss that line in a separate thread if you like.
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #18 - 10/04/09 at 13:02:51
 
tracke wrote on 10/04/09 at 11:26:35:
I generally don´t like to give my extensive analysis here for free so I won´t contribute to the concrete analysis of 7…Qc8 : imo Black can hold with accurate defence. But there are many more obvious crimes in the Caro-Kann coverage of COWE :


OK Tracke, I think your right in that assesment "hold with accurate defence" - this seems closer to the truth than White searching for equality(!)

The other lines you give I´ll look at after we have fully resolved this ...Re8 position, which seems to be a problem position for at least a few posters. The g4 idea against ....g6 lines obviously only works against that move order as you say - its a decent trap if Black doesnt know about it, but otherwise in general I think these ...g6 systems are well worth investigating for Black - I noticed Arkell has switched to this these days also.

By the way, you realise that "the shocking 11.Bg3" as you call it has been played by Smirin and also none other than good old Nigel Short who won a game against Ehlvest with this - cant be that much of a shocker  Wink In the chessbase annotations Volzhin describes this as a "humble move which is interesting and causes serious problems for Black"

By the way, the more I look at this line the more I am starting to like it for White. If I decide to include it in my repertoire I may have to start witholding a bit of analysis myself!
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #19 - 10/04/09 at 22:59:03
 
Keano wrote on 10/04/09 at 09:41:54:
No I'll not let you off the hook that easy - the ...Re8 position is critical to the integrity of COWE so for that reason I suggested continuing with the analysis, which I will. We know the book doesnt cover all defences, my point is the ideas and other redeeming points more than make up for it. If you dont agree fine, but dont try and insist on upholding Watsons view of the book in every post, or if so be prepared to back it up.

I am sorry, but now I don't exactly understand what you expect from me. You won't let me off the hook that easy, but you try to forbid me to insist my criticism (not Watson's) of the book?
I admire your efforts to pursuit White's attack after 18...Re8 - maybe you should write an addendum to COWE? After a closer look (I could not resist) I must admit that 21...Nd7 is incorrect. 21...Ne4 22.Rfh1 f6 23.Qc2 (I had overlooked that one) also looks interesting.
Anyhow, for the last time I will state that ADP should have mentioned this. White's play is not trivial at all. ADP should be grateful that you do their work. As I already said, I am too busy to analyse deeply. I have made my point often enough; you have posts of Tracke and TN to address as well.
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #20 - 10/05/09 at 03:26:17
 
One last remark - I just rediscovered that I have made a note on this line a long time ago after I had read that internet-review I can't refind. Iso 18...Qa6 and 18...Re8 there is also 18...Qd8. After 19.h5 Nxh5 both the ADP-idea 20.Qg4 Bf6 21.Bxf6 (because of Qxf6) and the Keano-idea 20.g4 Nf6 (perhaps even bxc3!?) 21.Kg2 Ne4 (or Nd7 22.Rfh1 f6!?) 22.Rfh1 f6 23.Qc2 (because of fxe5 24.Nxe4 dxe4 25.Qxe4 Qd5) fail. In the last line there is another funny idea: 22.Nxe4 dxe4 23.Bf6!? gxf6 (Bxf6 24.Rfh1 Bh4 25.Rxh4 f6 is also an option) 24.Rfh1 f5 25.Rh8+ Kg7 26.R1h7+ Kf6 27.g5+ Kxg5 28.Qh1 f4 and one would say that White's attack is decisive, but Rybka only gives a perpetual. I haven't looked closer at it.
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #21 - 10/05/09 at 10:49:33
 
MNb wrote on 10/04/09 at 22:59:03:
I am sorry, but now I don't exactly understand what you expect from me. You won't let me off the hook that easy, but you try to forbid me to insist my criticism (not Watson's) of the book?
I admire your efforts to pursuit White's attack after 18...Re8 - maybe you should write an addendum to COWE? After a closer look (I could not resist) I must admit that 21...Nd7 is incorrect. 21...Ne4 22.Rfh1 f6 23.Qc2 (I had overlooked that one) also looks interesting.
Anyhow, for the last time I will state that ADP should have mentioned this. White's play is not trivial at all. ADP should be grateful that you do their work. As I already said, I am too busy to analyse deeply. I have made my point often enough; you have posts of Tracke and TN to address as well.


MnB in the original thread about COWE you gave this ...Qc8 line as an example of why the Caro-KAnn exchange was a "second-rate" opening and said that it only leads to "equality for White at best" - at least I think it was you  Huh it might have been TN in which case I apologise. I´ve already pointed out that COWE does not cover all possible defensive moves like the Anand series, on the other hand the repertoire is more economical, but it does require independent research to plug some holes, for me thats part of the fun - if you grasp the essence of the positions and like the idea, then thats half the battle. Just glance at some of the ideas in this thread and the game GM Lie played and I dont think you can fail to be impressed by the beauty of it.

I´m a bit confused about your stance in this also, do you believe that COWE recommends "second-rate" openings in which White is fighting for equality? If we can establish that this is not so then your main grievance is that COWE does not present a full tree of the possible defensive moves - in which case I completely agree with you here!

I have already adressed TN and Tracke and am waiting for replies so dont try switching the subject...we´ll eventually get to the bottom of those grievances but for what its worth I dont think Tracke believes this line is completely innocuous, whereas TN as usual leaves me slightly baffled as to what book he is consulting that would say the Fischer-Petrosian line is OK for Black!
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #22 - 10/05/09 at 11:06:16
 
To be more precise, I think White gives up all hope for a concrete advantage after 4.Bd3. That's what it makes second-rate. It still can be fun for an amateur like me, I have played it for several years.
I don't try to change subject - I am trying to abandon it. I have a timetable for school to make. But you are the nice kind of guy that always deserves a serious answer ...
Neither is my main complaint that COWE is not like Khalifman's series. That is impossible. But I would have expected that it presents optimal play by Black - and then I don't mind if the overall conclusion is = - plus enough sample lines to present all ideas. You will have to admit imo that White's attacking play after 18...Qa6 is quite different from 18...Re8 and possibly also after 18...Qd8. In short, the book should have given three sample lines to show "the power of White's attack" as they put it.
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #23 - 10/05/09 at 11:28:54
 
That is a weakness of the book without a doubt ,at least we can agree on something  Wink  I take the view that the ideas in the book are still interesting enough to make the book worthwhile, I would prefer to spend money on this kind of book than on the "Play the xxxxx" type of book which presents the material as a game collection - this kind of book is usually more prosaic and full of holes anyhow since the format allows it.

There is a more serious issue here maybe as to the choice of repertoire, I´d disagree with you that the Exchange Caro gives up hope of a concrete advantage. If it was good enough for Nigel Short to win against Ehlvest and if there are still masters and Grandmasters playing it then it cant be all that bad!? The Nigle Short game with Bg3!? (as in COWE) is an example, and typical of some of Shorts other games in the Sicilian - it all seems deceptively simple and peaceful but beneath the surface there are awkward problems for Black to deal with. For an amateur player I would think the Exchange Caro is not a bad recommendation since it is solid while still gives chances for a advantage , the advance Caro with Nf3 as Short used to play was recommended by Kaufmann and is not a bad choice either except that these days there seems to be more and more theory accumulating in that direction.  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #24 - 10/05/09 at 11:47:05
 
Once again you have failed to properly address my points (incidentally that is also why I chose to not reply to your comments in the French thread, 2 of which were intended to disparage me).

Quote:
at least I think it was you  Huh it might have been TN in which case I apologise.


You misread or misconstrued MNb's post. He said 'COWE gives a game Dzjindzji-Karpov, suggests an "improvement" that would have lead to a winning attack - but only if Black cooperates like the authors expect him to do. As a consequence they rate the position around move 15 as slightly better for White. In reality, if anyone has an edge, it's Black (minority attack).' This is a far cry from claiming the entire variation to be equal for White at best.

Quote:
COWE does not cover all possible defensive moves like the Anand series


No opening book can reasonably cover all possible moves in one book, but ignoring the most important defensive options in favour of less critical moves does not make a positive impression on me.

Quote:
the repertoire is more economical


In other words: You agree with me that several of the lines in the book are suboptimal (ie not the most critical choice for White). Then again, any repertoire book has to make some sort of compromise.

Quote:
if you grasp the essence of the positions and like the idea, then thats half the battle.


That's a fair point, but unfortunately it's not applicable to most of this book because in order to grasp the essence of the positions and ideas, one must know how to counter Black's most critical moves. In fact, giving variations that are only equal or even slightly worse and claiming a slight advantage would damage a player's understanding of the variation as they would overestimate their chances in several positions and resultantly select incorrect plans in similar situations.

Quote:
do you believe that COWE recommends "second-rate" openings in which White is fighting for equality?


No, that is not what MNb or myself stated at all. However, as my analysis and the analysis of others shows, if White follows the recommendations in the book, in several instances White will be left fighting for equality, worse still under the illusion that they are better. I have already indicated in the French thread and this thread how White can improve over ADP's recommendations to provide some (admittedly small) chances of an edge.

Quote:
If we can establish that this is not so then your main grievance is that COWE does not present a full tree of the possible defensive moves - in which case I completely agree with you here!


That strays from the main points. COWE does not cover Black's most important defensive moves and the ideas are often suboptimal. From what I gather from your posts, this is the main disagreement between us.

Quote:
whereas TN as usual leaves me slightly baffled as to what book he is consulting that would say the Fischer-Petrosian line is OK for Black!


I suggest you read my posts more carefully then. I never suggested that following Fischer-Petrosian is okay for Black, but instead showed that deviating from this game with 7...Na5 8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qc2 Rc8 or 8...Nc6 provides Black with full equality. So far you have not questioned this with any analysis. For the record, I am referring to Nikitin's survey in Yearbook 79. Obviously there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with Nikitin's analysis, but to do you need to present some analysis of your own to show where and why you disagree.

Quote:
I have already adressed TN and Tracke and am waiting for replies so dont try switching the subject...


This is hypocritical as your attempt to address myself and tracke involved changing the subject:

Quote:
I dont know what book you have TN but that stuff with ...Na5 is known to be good for White since Fischer-Petrosian. 5...Qc7 is known to be respectable enough although its not so popular, we can discuss that line in a separate thread if you like.


This is a cop-out from analysing as you ignore the fact that Nikitin's analysis improves over the Fischer-Petrosian game, and you have not given any evidence that White has any edge whatsoever in this 5...Qc7 line. I've already given you a head start by presenting my recommendations for White over ADP's line.

Quote:
The other lines you give I´ll look at after we have fully resolved this ...Re8 position, which seems to be a problem position for at least a few posters.


This is just one of several problems with ADP's coverage of the Caro-Kann Exchange. As I already stated, finding an advantage in this ...Re8 variation for White won't make the variation any better for White.

Quote:
By the way, you realise that "the shocking 11.Bg3" as you call it has been played by Smirin and also none other than good old Nigel Short who won a game against Ehlvest with this - cant be that much of a shocker   In the chessbase annotations Volzhin describes this as a "humble move which is interesting and causes serious problems for Black"


This is all well and good, but can you show me how White can achieve an advantage in this line? For example, if Short and Volzhin claimed that 1.e4 b6 was completely equal without giving any variations, would you believe this or analyse the variation yourself and draw your own conclusions?

Quote:
By the way, the more I look at this line the more I am starting to like it for White. If I decide to include it in my repertoire I may have to start witholding a bit of analysis myself!


In that case, I recommend you do some analysis of tracke's and my suggestions. You will face these lines over the board, which means that the book disservices the reader by ignoring these important options.



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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #25 - 10/05/09 at 11:51:40
 
Keano wrote on 10/05/09 at 11:28:54:
There is a more serious issue here maybe as to the choice of repertoire, I´d disagree with you that the Exchange Caro gives up hope of a concrete advantage. If it was good enough for Nigel Short to win against Ehlvest and if there are still masters and Grandmasters playing it then it cant be all that bad!?

That GMs play lines on occasion isnt really implying that a line has hopes for an advantage (though it does mean it is prolly not totally daft Wink). A GM doesnt need a disadvantage in the opening to be able to lose a game to Short.
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #26 - 10/05/09 at 12:02:53
 
In this case Short did get an advantage out of the opening (TN take note!) - The Bg3 idea was praised in the Chessbase analysis by Volzhin who felt Black had very awkward problems to meet - I´m not going to copy and paste his analysis here but anyone can do a search for the game.

Edit - I´m mistaken and subscribers to chesspublishing are in luck! Its in fact old analysis from Chesspublishing by Volzhin, which still means I cant copy paste it:

http://www.chesspublishing.com/content/6/aug00.htm

His analysis of that game is rather detailed and good in my opinion.

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #27 - 10/05/09 at 12:06:06
 
TN wrote on 10/05/09 at 11:47:05:
In that case, I recommend you do some analysis of tracke's and my suggestions. You will face these lines over the board, which means that the book disservices the reader by ignoring these important options.


Thank you TN, I am well warned. In fairness I think we´re going around in circles here so lets call a truce and I´ll buy a round of beers for everybody. I don´t even play this line...yet!
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #28 - 10/05/09 at 12:47:15
 
I am happy to agree to a truce. Smiley

I don't have access to the ChessPublishing analysis since I am not a subscriber. Short-Ehlvest indeed seems slightly better for White, but I don't think 11.Bg3 suffices for an advantage due to the following game:

[Event "NED-chT 0708"]
[Site "Netherlands"]
[Date "2007.11.03"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Bitalzadeh, Ali"]
[Black "Peelen, Piet"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B13"]
[WhiteElo "2362"]
[BlackElo "2329"]
[PlyCount "100"]
[EventDate "2007.09.15"]
[EventType "team"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "NED"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2007.11.25"]

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Bd3 Nf6 6. Bf4 Bg4 7. Qb3 Qd7 8.
Nd2 e6 9. Ngf3 Bxf3 10. Nxf3 Bd6 11. Bg3 O-O 12. O-O Bxg3 13. hxg3 Qc7 14. Rae1
Rab8 15. Qd1 b5 16. g4 b4! {(incidentally Rybka's recommendation as well)}
17. g5 (17. Qc2 bxc3 18. bxc3 h6 19. g5 hxg5 20. Nxg5 {is the alternative,
which seems about equal since White's kingside attack is very slow and Black
has good counterplay against the c3-pawn.} Qf4 (20... Rfc8)) 17... Nh5 (17...
Ng4 {is Rybka's preference. Play could continue} 18. c4 dxc4 19. Bxc4 Ne7 20.
Rxe6 Ng6 21. Qb3 fxe6 22. Bxe6+ Kh8 23. Bxg4 a5 {with a complicated position
where White has at most a tiny edge.}) 18. Ne5 ({Instead} 18. c4 dxc4 19. Bxc4
Nf4 {is equal.}) 18... Nf4 19. Qg4!? (19. Qf3 Nxd3 20. Nxd3 Qa5 {gives Black
strong counterplay but should still be about equal.}) 19... Nxd3 20. Nxd3 bxc3
21. bxc3 Ne7 (21... Qa5!?) 22. Re3 Nf5 23. Rh3 Qxc3 24. Qh5 h6 25. gxh6 g6 (
25... Qxd4 26. hxg7 Qxg7 {may have been better albeit rather risky.}) 26. Qg5
Kh7 27. g4 Nxd4 28. Qe5 Nb5 29. Qg5 Qd4 30. Ne5 Nd6 31. Nd7 f6 32. Qe3 Qxg4+
33. Rg3 d4 34. Qa3 Qf4 35. Qxa7 Rf7 36. Qxb8 Rxd7 37. Qb3 Qe5 38. Qa4 Rc7 39.
Qb4 Nf5 40. Re1 Qd5 41. Rh3 Nh4 42. Rg3 Rb7 43. Qa3 e5 44. Rc1 e4 45. Qa8 Rd7
46. Qe8 g5 47. Rc8 Ng6 48. Rc5 Qxc5 49. Qxd7+ Kxh6 50. Qd8 Qe5 1/2-1/2

The advantage switched back and forth in this game, but the opening and early middlegame was equal.

This is the only game with 16...b4, so it is quite possible that Volzhin did not mention the improvement 16...b4 in his analyses. If this move is included in his analysis, I would be interested to know his opinion.
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #29 - 10/05/09 at 12:56:51
 
Volzhin indeed prefers 11...0-0 for Black (he gives 11...Bxg3 as "?!" )

I hope I can say this much without getting into trouble - the line he gives against 11...0-0 is not the straightforward 12.0-0 and his evaluation ends in a "small but steady advantage for White". I know 12.0-0 is Dzindzi´s move and hope to look at your line, but the Volzhin suggestion looks interesting as well delaying 0-0.

I´m sure Short has annotated this game in Informator also, be interesting if he gave any comments about the opening part of the game and what he intended.
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