Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C18: PP 13.Qxc3 (Read 7109 times)
Keano
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Re: PP 13.Qxc3
Reply #10 - 01/28/10 at 09:02:58
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Ganguly looks to have switched now to the ...Kb8 idea I mentioned earlier. Since he is known for his outstanding theoretical preparation this should be noted by French PP fans:

[Event "4th Kolkata Open"]
[Site "Kolkata IND"]
[Date "2009.??.??"]
[White "Abu Sufian,S"]
[Black "Ganguly,S"]
[Round "1"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2362"]
[BlackElo "2634"]
[ECO "C19"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3
Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 Qc7 8. Qxg7 Rg8 9. Qxh7
cxd4 10. Ne2 Nbc6 11. f4 Bd7 12. Qd3 dxc3 13. Qxc3 O-O-O 14. Rb1 Kb8 15. Rg1 Bc8 16. g4 b6 17. Be3 Rh8 18. Bc5 d4 19. Qg3 Nd5 20. Bd6 Rxd6 21. exd6 Qxd6 22. Rd1 Qc5 23. Bg2 Ba6 24. Bxd5 exd5 25. Rd2 Re8 26. Rg2 Na5 27. f5+ Kb7 28. g5 Nc4 29. g6 Qa5 30. Qf4 Re4 31. g7 Rxf4 32. Nxf4 Nxd2 33. Rxd2 Qxa3 34. Nd3 Qe7+ 35. Kf1 Qg5 36. Ke1 Qg1+  0-1
  
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MNb
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Re: PP 13.Qxc3
Reply #9 - 01/28/10 at 02:02:51
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MemoryMaster wrote on 01/27/10 at 05:10:23:
Oh no, you are mistaking me. I read my post after Mnb had replied to it and realised that I did not make any sense, hence I tried to refine what I was trying to say. It would be strange to answer in a rude way to a person who is obviously attempting to answer.

Don't worry, I did not take it in a rude way. I think it makes perfectly sense to analyze this and look out for improvements. If not the most valuable Dom would have nothing left to post in this section and that would be something I would regret very much (yes, you did a review on the current theory and if I ever will have the courage to take the Winawer PP up I will use that review as a start).

After 17.Rb4 Psachis prefers ...a6 without coming to a conclusion, so you are not the only one who is insecure.
  

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MemoryMaster
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Re: PP 13.Qxc3
Reply #8 - 01/27/10 at 18:39:02
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Thank you, I took your advice and I analysed the position after 16...Na5, initially without a board as if it was a real game and I think I found the correct continuation for white when I checked with the computer and databases.

17.g4 Ba4 18.gxf5 Bxc2 19.Qb5 Bxb1 20.Rxg8 Rxg8 21.Qxb1 and I think white is winning once his pieces are centralised.

Obviously I understood that it cannot be this easy so went back and found 19...Bxf5 and I it is clear black has improved (20.Rxg8 Rxg8 21.Ra1 d3 22.Ng3 Qc3+).

18.Rb2 Ne4 and again this spells problems for white.

17.Rb4 is therefore best and it is not clear what the purpose of the knight move was. 17...Nc6 18.Rc4 (or possibly 8.Rb2 as 18...Nc5 19.g4). I stopped my analysis here.

Shirov-Ganguly continued 18...Be8 (only way to activate the bishop is Be8, f6, Bg6) 19.g4 Nh4 20.Rg3 f6 21.exf6 Bg6 22.Rxc6 is very precise.

Can anyone see any improvements for black?
« Last Edit: 01/27/10 at 20:39:03 by MemoryMaster »  
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dom
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Re: PP 13.Qxc3
Reply #7 - 01/27/10 at 17:58:59
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I correct a little: I have not reviewed "current theory" ...or maybe I did but I don't know.

I am a player like many others and worked for long time about this opening and played French as Black, because French is part of my repertoire for long time.

Stopping in one position of the PP and asking if it's good for Black or not ... will of course not give you an answer for the question if PP can give youi good results.

I proceed differently: I select lines and work on them, mainly with books and annotated games, I try to know if I undertstand well positionnal motives and plans in them to practice theses lines OTB. Usually, if I don't have clear refutation of one line, I draw my conclusion "I can play it"...and I play it, with good or bad results. Sometimes results are bad, not because of knowledge but because other hints.

One good start is to buy new books...with title like  "Winning French Winawer" or some others Watson mentionned in his chesspub updates (Kindermann,). Why ? Because players will read same books as you...but maybe they will not do same work (undertstand well plans, trying to collect more games...)...and best prepared player will have best chances.

You can start with position you put in first post: did you ask questions like: OK, White has not put knight on d4 square ...what are difference of plans with position where there is Black pawn on d5 and White knight blockading on d4 square ? Is it a real chance White will push soon a h2 pawn ? Can Black open quickly center with a pawn break like f6 or a sacriifice ? Has Black counterplay on c file and specific on c2 pawn ? Has White a plan for an attack on king ?....many many questions, and when you play games or look games you will soon discover these questions and some answers 

  

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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: PP 13.Qxc3
Reply #6 - 01/27/10 at 12:10:29
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This question is not so clear- just go and do some research and post some concrete lines with your thoughts and you will increase your chances of a constructive response.
16.. na5, 16.. f6, 16.. be8 and 16.. Kb8 are the main moves. You should look at Ganguly as he's played a few of these.
I wonder if one of the posters could give some lines on 13..Kb8 as I haven't seen this played recently

BTW 7...Kf8 is becoming more popular.
  
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Keano
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Re: PP 13.Qxc3
Reply #5 - 01/27/10 at 09:12:31
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That particular position Jan Timman did a fantastic article in New In Chess magazine many many years ago. Of course its out of date theoretically but if you could get your hands on it you will get a fantastic explanation of that crazy variation and the fantasy required to play it. Personally I have never been up to the challenge as Black - there are lines where you play ...f6 followed by ..e5 and White gets 4(!) connected passed pawns on the kingside but still loses to a central breakthrough.

After 13.Qxc3 you should investigate 13...Kb8!? also. I played this with some success, I think it was recommended in Watsons first French book - the plan looks riculously slow but can be surprisingly effective- ...Bc8,...b6,...Bb7(or a6 depending) and the c-file is also freed up for a rook. With the Knight not on f5 the White kingside roller is slower.

Edit - 13...Kb8 is an impossible move - I mean 13...0-0-0 then 14...Kb8 of course  Wink
« Last Edit: 01/28/10 at 08:58:19 by Keano »  
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Re: PP 13.Qxc3
Reply #4 - 01/27/10 at 05:10:23
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Oh no, you are mistaking me. I read my post after Mnb had replied to it and realised that I did not make any sense, hence I tried to refine what I was trying to say. It would be strange to answer in a rude way to a person who is obviously attempting to answer.
  
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Re: PP 13.Qxc3
Reply #3 - 01/27/10 at 04:06:50
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M-Master, 

First of all, MilenPetrov is right to leave it here since it's a French question.

Second, MNb may be Dutch, but his English is excellent.  The question wasn't so much difficult to answer as difficult to understand.   

What exactly is your question, and don't worry about FMs or others.  There are plenty of extremely strong analysts here  regardless of their titles. And yes, some even have a GM title.

So, rather than being supercilious to others, just try to ask the question clearly! 

What is your "level", and what sort of answer are you really looking for?  A specific plan? What?

Cheers! Cool
  
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MemoryMaster
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Re: PP 13.Qxc3
Reply #2 - 01/27/10 at 02:48:35
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Excuse me, I realise my question is difficult for you to answer.

One FM I know, who has the french as his main weapon, naturally avoids the poisoned pawn. In fact with the bad reputation of the PP, this ought to hold true for the majority of french players. Can I be content with the position with the conclusion that white has a clear advantage in exploiting the passed h-pawn. The position is still complex and for players like me that means more chance of screwing up an advantage. Yet do you think trying to find improvements for black in this position is reasonable for me at my level?
  
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MNb
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Re: PP 13.Qxc3
Reply #1 - 01/27/10 at 00:35:31
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I am not sure what your question is so I am quite at a loss what kind of answer you expect. If your question is how to prepare this very line I am afraid there is no other way than the hard one: play through games and analyse them. According to Psachis a start could be the corr. game Geist-Borchers with the aim to find improvements for Black.
  

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MemoryMaster
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C18: PP 13.Qxc3
01/26/10 at 17:59:10
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In reaction to the user Dom's review of current theory on PP ( http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1241521220 ) I would like to further discuss 13.Qxc3 and the position arising after 

13...Nf5 14. Rb1 d4 15. Qd3 O-O-O 16. Rg1

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The question I have about this position is not so much about this opening itself but just as much about general preperation. 

I suppose I should not expect to run into the very main lines against stronger opposition but since I am playing all types of category of players it makes it difficult to prepare efficiently. All comments are welcome and especially in reference ot the position.

For your information my national rating is 2177 and I am serious now about looking to play in FIDE tournaments.



Edit: Moderator, please move this thread to the general forum if you doubt my judgement of putting it here.
« Last Edit: 07/23/11 at 16:14:47 by dom »  
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