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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) System against Danish, Goering, and Ponziani! (Read 20914 times)
PANFR
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Re: System against Danish, Goering, and Ponziani!
Reply #25 - 04/30/12 at 11:00:25
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In the Nd2 line and after 9.Ng5 (which I did not consider at all, since it doesn't look having any real punch) 9...Nc6 is natural and strong, but Houdini prefers 9...Qe7 10.Nb3 Nbd7, which looks at least clearly better for Black.
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: System against Danish, Goering, and Ponziani!
Reply #24 - 04/30/12 at 10:29:00
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I have compared the PANFR pgn with "Danish Dynamite" (although the analysis in the latter has proved hard to navigate due to various transpositions).  I think we indeed have another line which improves for Black relative to the traditional 5...Nc6 6.Nf3 lines.
In the line 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Bc4 cxb2 5.Bxb2 Bb4+ 6.Nc3 Nf6 7.Nge2 0-0 8.0-0, they missed 8...d6 (where I think the position after 9.Nd5 Nxd5 10.Bxd5 Qg5 is probably =+ rather than -/+, but I don't deny that White is struggling to prove enough for the two pawns). 
In the line 6.Nd2 they gave 6...Nf6 7.Ngf3 (other lines were assessed as not giving enough compensation) 7...0-0 8.0-0 d6 9.Ng5 Bxd2 10.Qxd2 when White gets reasonable compensation, although the simple 9...Nc6 looks stronger.  I agree with the "=+" assessment at the end of the 7...d5 line, which highlights one major problem with the Danish move-order: without a knight on c6 Black has more scope to get in ...d5 effectively.
  
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PANFR
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Re: System against Danish, Goering, and Ponziani!
Reply #23 - 04/30/12 at 10:26:58
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I do not have "Danish Dynamite" so I can't really compare. The games picked are lo-fi, but the analysis (using mainly Critter and Houdini 1.5 for tactical flaws) took some time to complete.
I agree that the Goring Gambit order is better, although I'm sceptical for white's compensation in Watson's "A" line. I could probably check this old analysis, and come back with something.
  
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MNb
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Re: System against Danish, Goering, and Ponziani!
Reply #22 - 04/30/12 at 09:56:06
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Thanks. 6.Nc3 Nf6 7.Nge2 Nc6 8.O-O O-O and 6.Nd2 Nf6 7.Ngf3 O-O 8.O-O d6 have been analyzed by Voigt and Müller. You might want to compare. While I never have been sure if White gets enough compensation (the same with 5...Nc6 6.Nf3 Bb4 and 5...Nc6 6.Nf3 d6) "Black is almost winning" is an exaggeration.
Thus I mostly played 4.Nxc3.
  

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SWJediknight
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Re: System against Danish, Goering, and Ponziani!
Reply #21 - 04/30/12 at 09:49:23
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I agree that 4.Bc4 is dubious (if White wishes to play the double gambit then he/she should rather use the Göring Gambit order, which often transposes to John Watson's line A; I think White has improvements over his analysis in the line 7.Qb3).  But like MNb I think "Black is almost winning" is an exaggeration; maybe =+ with best play.
However 4.Nxc3 is probably fully sound and pretty dangerous in OTB play, e.g. 4...Bb4 5.Bc4 Nc6 6.Nge2 is an interesting option, or 6.Nf3 d6 (6...Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 d6 8.Ng5) 7.Ng5.  The line 4...d6 5.Bc4 Nc6 6.Nf3 Nf6 also leads to approximate equality.

Accepting the gambit is the most theoretically critical response (despite being an aficionado of these lines with White, I have had pretty good results in the ...dxc3 lines as Black also), but many players are not comfortable with "taking White on" like this- hence preferring a relatively safe declining line.  I think 3...Ne7 is fine against the Danish Gambit but against the Göring Tim Harding's recommendation of 4...Nf6 5.e5 Nd5 is probably a better bet than 4...Nge7.
  
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PANFR
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Re: System against Danish, Goering, and Ponziani!
Reply #20 - 04/30/12 at 05:03:06
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4.Nxc3 is naturally better than 4.Bc4, white has decent chances to equalize. The old lines from Zagorovsky's book are still quite valid, although of course they need some revision.
6.Nc3 and 6.Nd2 are both inadequate after the simple AND safe 6...Nf6.
Players like you netted me my current 2364 FIDE ELO. I could agree that this silly opening could have some practical value 15-20 years ago, but currently it does not stand up to any half-serious analytical effort.

Attached are two analysed games after Nc3 and Nd2. White has a terrible game in both variations. 6.Kf1 (also not satisfactory) included.
« Last Edit: 04/30/12 at 06:31:21 by PANFR »  

game1.pgn ( 12 KB | Downloads )
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MNb
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Re: System against Danish, Goering, and Ponziani!
Reply #19 - 04/29/12 at 22:14:59
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PANFR wrote on 04/29/12 at 20:07:42:
Black is almost winning by accepting both pawns in the Danish (1.e4 e5 2.d4 ed4 3.c3 dc3 4.Bc4 cb2 5.Bxb2 Bb4+) so there is absolutely no need looking for "an equalizer".
Watson's analysis is old and full of tactical holes, but his "A" variation is overall good for Black.

6.Nc3.
6.Nd2.
4.Nxc3.
Players like you netted me a lot of points back in the days when I used to play 2.d4 and 3.c3.

Of course we are not looking for an equalizer, we are looking for a defense that's solid, safe ánd allows Black to play for a win. 5...Bb4+ doesn't qualify on the first two points.
  

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PANFR
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Re: System against Danish, Goering, and Ponziani!
Reply #18 - 04/29/12 at 20:07:42
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Black is almost winning by accepting both pawns in the Danish (1.e4 e5 2.d4 ed4 3.c3 dc3 4.Bc4 cb2 5.Bxb2 Bb4+) so there is absolutely no need looking for "an equalizer".
Watson's analysis is old and full of tactical holes, but his "A" variation is overall good for Black.
  
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BabySnake
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Re: System against Danish, Goering, and Ponziani!
Reply #17 - 04/27/12 at 09:49:43
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I agree with you that Watson probably changed his mind based on his improved analysis of 7...Be7 8.Qb3 etc (not taking 8.Nxd4 into account).

I think Ne7 may not necessarily be the cleanest equaliser vs Danish/Göring but certainly may surprise many white players.
  
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Re: System against Danish, Goering, and Ponziani!
Reply #16 - 04/27/12 at 00:06:37
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I don't know the reason why, but as far as I can see, White's best is to aim for an IQP position with 8.cxd4.  8...Be7 9.Qb3 Na5 (9...Bxf3 10.Qxf3 +=) 10.Qa4+ Nc6 11.Ne5 should give White an edge, and 8...Nb6 9.Bb5 Be7 10.h3 is quite a nice IQP position, though I doubt that White really has much of an advantage.

8.Qb3 Bxf3 9.gxf3 Na5 should lead to a draw, which is discouraging if Black wishes to play for a win, but does not threaten the soundness of the line.  8.Re1+ Be7 9.Bg5 0-0 is indeed fine for Black.

Perhaps Watson was dismissive of 7...Bg4 because it is not a certain equaliser, while believing that 7...Be7 equalises fully on account of the inaccurate continuation 8.Qb3 (as opposed to 8.Nxd4).

This ...Ne7 idea is a more certain equaliser against the Danish Gambit because if White tries to transpose back to the critical line with 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 Ne7 4.Bc4 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nf3, instead of 6...Nc6 transposing, better is 6...Nb6!.  I think that move equalises fully as 7.Bb5+ can be met by 7...Bd7 rather than 7...Nc6 transposing to lines that we've already considered.  Continuations with an early e4-e5 push are absolutely fine for Black.
  
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BabySnake
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Re: System against Danish, Goering, and Ponziani!
Reply #15 - 04/26/12 at 15:09:39
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Some very interesting stuff here. Did anyone find out why Watson dismissed 7...Bg4.
  
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ChevyBanginStyle
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Re: System against Danish, Goering, and Ponziani!
Reply #14 - 03/20/10 at 12:04:28
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SWJediknight wrote on 03/19/10 at 10:59:36:
I'm not sure about the assessment of "=+" (haven't checked the line for a while) but Michael Goeller thinks 7...Nd6 is strong for Black:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2009/open-g6-pt2.htm

Certainly no worse than equal for Black, it must be admitted.

I agree with Goeller, incidentally, that in the Goring Gambit line 4.c3 Nge7 5.Bc4 d5 6.exd5 Nxd5 7.0-0 Be7, 8.Nxd4! is better than 8.Qb3 despite Muller and Voigt's endorsement of the latter.  (Note that in Watson's analysis of the latter below, 8.Qb3 Be6! 9.Nxd4 Nxd4 10.cxd4 0-0, which he correctly assesses as equal, Black has more than a draw after 11.Qxb7?).   I think White has good chances of an edge after 8.Nxd4.  Interesting to see Goeller recommend 7...Bg4!? despite Watson's dismissal of the line here.
http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/john-watson-reviews/danish-dynamite


I am tending to agree with Goeller. After 7...Be7 8.Nxd4 Ne5 9.Bb5+, Kf8 may be Black's best, which is not something I am entirely happy with. After MNb's continuation 8...0-0 9.Nxc6 bxc6, Goeller gives "10.Qh5 +=" which may be the case. It seems hard to prevent White from catching up in development.

Maybe 7...Bg4 is best, but after 8.Qb3 Bxf3 9.gxf3 Na5, I think White can force a perpetual with 10.Qa4+ Nc6 11.Qb3. I don't see any problems with 8.Re1+ Be7 9.Bg5 0-0 or any of the lines mentioned by Goeller, so this may be best.

I am inclined to say that if 7...Bg4 doesn't work, I may just play 4...d5 after all or find a good accepted line against the Goering. Tongue
  
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Re: System against Danish, Goering, and Ponziani!
Reply #13 - 03/19/10 at 23:32:36
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SWJediknight wrote on 03/19/10 at 10:59:36:
I'm not sure about the assessment of "=+" (haven't checked the line for a while) but Michael Goeller thinks 7...Nd6 is strong for Black:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2009/open-g6-pt2.htm

Certainly no worse than equal for Black, it must be admitted.

I agree with Goeller, incidentally, that in the Goring Gambit line 4.c3 Nge7 5.Bc4 d5 6.exd5 Nxd5 7.0-0 Be7, 8.Nxd4! is better than 8.Qb3 despite Muller and Voigt's endorsement of the latter.  (Note that in Watson's analysis of the latter below, 8.Qb3 Be6! 9.Nxd4 Nxd4 10.cxd4 0-0, which he correctly assesses as equal, Black has more than a draw after 11.Qxb7?).   I think White has good chances of an edge after 8.Nxd4.  Interesting to see Goeller recommend 7...Bg4!? despite Watson's dismissal of the line here.
http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/john-watson-reviews/danish-dynamite


Hmm, I wonder what made Watson change his mind about 7...Bg4. I don't have his book, so my only point of reference is Goeller's recommendation. It's just so strange for him to off-handedly dismiss one of his lines without any analysis, since he's one to give detailed variations.

Possibly 7...Nb6 is simplest a la c3 Sicilian, although it really isn't one. 8.Bb5 Bd7 9.Re1+ Be7 10.Qe2 Nc8 intending 0-0 is one defensive idea, and I think Black is OK as odd as Nc8 looks. (Edit: I have my doubts; e.g. 11.Bxc6 Bxc6 12.Nxd4 Bd7 13.Bg5 h6 14.Bxe7 Nxe7 15.Qe5 Kf8 looks a bit awkward.)
« Last Edit: 03/20/10 at 10:20:41 by ChevyBanginStyle »  
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MNb
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Re: System against Danish, Goering, and Ponziani!
Reply #12 - 03/19/10 at 20:31:05
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SWJediknight wrote on 03/19/10 at 10:59:36:
I agree with Goeller, incidentally, that in the Goring Gambit line 4.c3 Nge7 5.Bc4 d5 6.exd5 Nxd5 7.0-0 Be7, 8.Nxd4! is better than 8.Qb3 despite Muller and Voigt's endorsement of the latter.  (Note that in Watson's analysis of the latter below, 8.Qb3 Be6! 9.Nxd4 Nxd4 10.cxd4 0-0, which he correctly assesses as equal, Black has more than a draw after 11.Qxb7?).   I think White has good chances of an edge after 8.Nxd4.


I find it hard to believe. After 8...0-0 9.Nxc6 bxc6 Black has a lead in development, a strong knight on d5 and an halfopen b-file for the ruined pawn structure. Perhaps even 8...Ne5 9.Bb5+ c6 10.Re1 cxb5 11.Rxe5 0-0 is playable.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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SWJediknight
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Re: System against Danish, Goering, and Ponziani!
Reply #11 - 03/19/10 at 10:59:36
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I'm not sure about the assessment of "=+" (haven't checked the line for a while) but Michael Goeller thinks 7...Nd6 is strong for Black:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2009/open-g6-pt2.htm

Certainly no worse than equal for Black, it must be admitted.

I agree with Goeller, incidentally, that in the Goring Gambit line 4.c3 Nge7 5.Bc4 d5 6.exd5 Nxd5 7.0-0 Be7, 8.Nxd4! is better than 8.Qb3 despite Muller and Voigt's endorsement of the latter.  (Note that in Watson's analysis of the latter below, 8.Qb3 Be6! 9.Nxd4 Nxd4 10.cxd4 0-0, which he correctly assesses as equal, Black has more than a draw after 11.Qxb7?).   I think White has good chances of an edge after 8.Nxd4.  Interesting to see Goeller recommend 7...Bg4!? despite Watson's dismissal of the line here.
http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/john-watson-reviews/danish-dynamite
  
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