ChessPub Forum - What do you think of the Tartakower?

Pingudon

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What do you think of the Tartakower?
06/07/10 at 18:42:54

Hi friends: I did a review of the Tartakower D58 in my data base of more than 3 million games. I put an ELO of 2000 to 2500 and it gives the following: 1-0 30%-- 1/2 52%-- 0-1 18% . It has been used for Kasparov, Karpov, Anand in his last game of the World Championship, Short etc. But it seems is not good anymore. Everyone plays slav, semislav... what has happened with the trusty and old Tartakower. Why is not in the repertoire of the Top Guns As it was in the arsenal os Spassky, Nigel Short, Karpov? I would like to hear your opinions.

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Seth_Xoma Full Member Offline FIDE Master, 2302 FIDE and 2328 USCF. Posts: 216 Lansing Gender:	Re: What do you think of the Tartakower? Reply #1 - 06/07/10 at 19:33:39 Small correction: Anand played the QGD Lasker in his last game vs Topalov.
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OrangeCounty

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You played that like it
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #2 - 06/07/10 at 19:40:12

The Tartakower's theoretical status is pretty good. I don't think there's anything worse than +/= waiting for Black, and he generally gets some counterplay in an uneven position. It will probably make a comeback at some point (as the Lasker has, a little bit, being used by Anand and Carlsen).

There are reasons why it might not, however. White has a very comfortable position which could be characterised as "easier to play", and the Tartakower is positionally dangerous for black; if he gets tied down the hanging pawns can be very vulnerable in the main theoretical lines, for instance.

It just isn't terribly attractive even if it is okay, and you have a broad preparation spectrum playing 1...d5, 2...e6, including the Catalan (very popular for White right now), Exchange (also presenting problems for Black), and several different versions of Queenside castling or Bc1-f4 ideas that avoid the Tartakower entirely.

For a full comeback, I think A. White needs to prove something in the Lasker and other main lines of the Bg5 QGD, and B. Black needs to patch up the Exchange and Catalan enough to make them less enticing.

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downward YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 29 Weymouth, United Kingdom	Re: What do you think of the Tartakower? Reply #3 - 06/07/10 at 19:42:53 Pingudon, you asked the same question about Tartakower 6 months ago. there's a long thread on it. you really must like Tartakower then if that hasn't satisfied you.
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kylemeister

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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #4 - 06/07/10 at 21:17:34

I would think it pretty much goes without saying that there is nothing worse than +/= awaiting Black in the Tartakower, and that a better question would be whether in fact anything like a definite +/= has been established. A few observations: two encyclopedias from the late '90s thought White had a (narrow) route to +/=, but three of them published between 2003 and 2008 thought the best-play lines should be equal or unclear or the like, rather than +/=. Ivan Sokolov's discussion of various lines in his 2008/2009 book also seemed to fall on the "equal with best play" side.

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ANDREW BRETT

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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #5 - 06/09/10 at 13:39:52

I think the Lasker is a pretty reliable equaliser and the Tartakower is quite good too but perhaps with slightly more complex play.

Getting to play either line is not so simple these days as most players play the Nimzo rather than allow the Exchange variation, or white players play Bf4 lines or most recently the Catalan.

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Bibs God Member Offline Posts: 1016	Re: What do you think of the Tartakower? Reply #6 - 06/10/10 at 09:12:44 Bit dull. Okay for vegetarians and old people.
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Ametanoitos

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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #7 - 06/10/10 at 11:56:23

The Tartakower is simply an excellent choice! Together with the Lasker they can form a life-time bullet proof repertoire. The great thing about Tartakower is that studying it you meet chess in it's highest level. Starting with Capa-Alekhine and moving to Spassky-Kasparov/Karpon, Short, Anand and the modern GMs you raise your level of understanding and playing strengh just by studying their classic games. As for the theoritical status, in the "old main lines" it cannot be better! No advantage for White! Can Black play for the win? Absolutely yes! Even in the "boring" Lasker (and i don't have in mind the Topalov-Anand game only). What is the problem? The Catalan and the Bf4 lines. In the first case i recommend studying the chapter "White's dissapearing advantage" in the Wojo's reperoire book and for the Bf4 lines i recommend the "Tartakower-like" ...b6 variations as these were given by Dautov as equal (and were recommended by Mc Donald in his starting out book also). The tryth is that in both cases White can claim a tiny something. If you want, you can study the main line Catalan (...dxc4 and Be7 etc)and the ...c5 main lines after Bf4 and you have an equal game there also, but with the great prise of having to remember tons of complicated theory. All in all this is what i think of the Tartakower: FANTASTIC CHOICE!

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BPaulsen

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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #8 - 06/10/10 at 13:45:19

Ametanoitos wrote on 06/10/10 at 11:56:23:

The Catalan and the Bf4 lines. In the first case i recommend studying the chapter "White's dissapearing advantage" in the Wojo's reperoire book and for the Bf4 lines i recommend the "Tartakower-like" ...b6 variations as these were given by Dautov as equal (and were recommended by Mc Donald in his starting out book also). The tryth is that in both cases White can claim a tiny something. If you want, you can study the main line Catalan (...dxc4 and Be7 etc)and the ...c5 main lines after Bf4 and you have an equal game there also, but with the great prise of having to remember tons of complicated theory. All in all this is what i think of the Tartakower: FANTASTIC CHOICE!

Most sources I have rate the old main line of the 5. Bf4 QGD with black playing 6...c5 as slightly better for white in the continuation with 10. Nd2 (instead of 10. 0-0-0 which is tremendously theoretical and equal).

5. Bf4 0-0 6. e3 Nbd7 has gained in popularity as a result of that, and black has been doing okay there (7. a3 leads to a += ending black can hold with accurate play). The Tartakower-esque approach is likely best after 6. a3 b6, but I've been unable to punch a hole in TN's analysis there (it's posted on chesspub), to date (white can reach TN's analysis via 6. e3 b6 7. a3 if he wants, anyway). I pretty much agree white should keep slightly better chances.

If white's going to bother with the Classical QGD (d4/c4/Nf3/Nc3) he should put his emphasis on 5. Bf4. 5. Bg5 is pretty much finished due to both the Tartakower and Lasker, at least if white's trying to get an edge. For any black QGD player the Tartakower's a great choice for dealing with 5. Bg5.

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Keano God Member Offline I reckon so Posts: 1471 Manchester Gender:	Re: What do you think of the Tartakower? Reply #9 - 06/10/10 at 15:16:56 BPaulsen wrote on 06/10/10 at 13:45:19: If white's going to bother with the Classical QGD (d4/c4/Nf3/Nc3) he should put his emphasis on 5. Bf4. 5. Bg5 is pretty much finished due to both the Tartakower and Lasker, at least if white's trying to get an edge. A pretty bold statement!
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Ametanoitos

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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #10 - 06/11/10 at 15:20:24

BPaulsen, the 10.Nd2 variation was burried by the Nielsen-Anand team with a convicing idea:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 Be7 5. Bf4 O-O 6. e3 c5 7. dxc5 Bxc5 8. a3 Nc6 9. Qc2 Qa5 10. Nd2 Bb4 11. cxd5 exd5 12. Bd3 Nh5!
13. Bg3
(13. Nb3 Bxc3+14. bxc3 Qd8)
(13. Bxh7+ Kh8 14. Bd3 Nxf4 15. exf4 Re8+)
13... h6
(13... d4 14. Nb3 Bxc3+ 15. bxc3 Qxc3+ 16. Qxc3 dxc3 17. Rc1 Nxg3 18. hxg3 h6 19. Rxc3 Be6 20. Nc5 Ne5 21. Nxe6 Nxd3+ 22. Rxd3 fxe6 23. Ke2 =) 14. O-O Bxc3 15. Nb3 Qb6 16. Qxc3 Nxg3 17. hxg3 Rd8 18. Nc5 d4 19. exd4 Nxd4 20. Rfe1 Be6 21. Nxe6 Nxe6 22. Rac1 Rd6 23. b4 Rad8 24. Be4 Ng5 25. Bb1 Rc6 26. Qb2 Rxc1 27.
Qxc1 g6 28. Qc3 Qd4 29. Qxd4{1/2,Gelfand,B (2727)-Nielsen,P (2646)/Turin
olm/2006/}

Also, i think that Black has to be slightly worse after the ...b6 aproach but this is a very slight edge (even thought Dautov doesn't think so) and this is a good trade-off between the theory you have to know and the soundness of the position.

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kylemeister God Member Offline Insert witty and/or pithy saying here Posts: 2177 USA	Re: What do you think of the Tartakower? Reply #11 - 06/11/10 at 17:09:12 Larry Kaufman, in a Yearbook article about nine months ago, thought that 10. Rd1 is quite pleasant for White.
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LeeRoth

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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #12 - 06/11/10 at 17:57:50

I like to see 10.Nd2 and 10.0-0-0 because -- whether you think its equal or slightly better for White -- it's at least a game. But that 8.cxd5 line is a soul-sucking bit of dreariness (e.g., Leko-Kramnik from their match). Black can hold the ending, but that's about it.

Of course, if you're going to play the QGD as Black, you have to resign yourself to having such days. It's hard to liven things up if White is intent on deadening the position. Against lower-rated players, either you need to have faith in your ability to outplay them in an endgame or you need to have another opening up your sleeve.

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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 850 Anaheim, CA, USA Gender:	Re: What do you think of the Tartakower? Reply #13 - 06/11/10 at 18:34:06 kylemeister wrote on 06/11/10 at 17:09:12: Larry Kaufman, in a Yearbook article about nine months ago, thought that 10. Rd1 is quite pleasant for White. I noticed that one as well, especially since in Dautov's old database from 2001 he was rather dismissive of it. @Ametanoitos Good find.
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Ametanoitos God Member Offline I hope that we will share a beer again Nikos...... Posts: 673 Patras	Re: What do you think of the Tartakower? Reply #14 - 06/11/10 at 21:08:03 i have 10.Rd1 in my repertoire and i think that White has good chances of a slight advantage. Atallik's analysis is the most respected antidote here. See for example GM Stohl's comments in Kramnik-Carlsen 2009 in megabase. It would be great to see what Mr Cox will propose in his coming book in the QGD.
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