ChessPub Forum - French Fort Knox (5.d5)

Tan Kien Wei

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French Fort Knox (5.d5)
06/14/10 at 20:09:08

Hi all,

I recently came across a player who played 5.d5 against my Fort Knox system. I am a 2000 rated player, yet I faced certain difficulties against this move.
The starting opening moves are as followed:
1.e4 e6
2.d4 d5
3.Nc3 dxe4
4.Nxe4 Bd7
5.d5!?
I tried exd5 and I was in trouble in both games. White's play was alot easier to play, with moves such as Bg5, O-O-O, Bc4/Bb5 coming. Most of the time, my king was stuck in the center. I have checked with the theory, however, it seems like "nobody" had ever played 5.d5 so far. Dear chess friends, any idea on how to counter this system?

Thanks,
Kien Wei

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Fromper Full Member Offline GrandPatzer Posts: 118 Florida, USA Gender:	Re: French Fort Knox (5.d5) Reply #1 - 06/14/10 at 21:38:41 I'm a weaker player than you, but my first instinct is that you shouldn't take the pawn, because that's what white wants. When you take d5, does he recapture with the queen immediately, or play it as a gambit?
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BPaulsen

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Re: French Fort Knox (5.d5)
Reply #2 - 06/15/10 at 05:26:33

5...exd5 6. Qxd5 Nc6 seems straightforward enough, with black just aiming to develop, simplify, and draw.

Alternatively due to white's awkward Ne4, 5...Qe7 deserves thought intending 6. dxe6 Qxe6, and black can continue development with Bc6, Nd7, 0-0-0, etc. Optically this seems more ambitious.

Something of an axiom (at least to me) is that in unorthodox/counterintuitive opening variations (such as white's d5) the best responses tend to be unorthodox themselves. I've gotten in trouble plenty of times by trying to play the opening on auto-pilot instead of `playing chess` and figuring out the problems as they come.

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Tan Kien Wei

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Re: French Fort Knox (5.d5)
Reply #3 - 06/15/10 at 09:50:50

Hi all,

My opponent took the d5 pawn with Qxd5.

For instance after
6. Qxd5 Nc6
7. Bg5 Be7
8. O-O-O, with pressure on d7 and the option of Qb5 and Bc4, depending on how Black responds. In certain lines, if you were to chase away the g5 bishop with h6, the bishop can retreat to d2 and then c3, controlling the a1-h8 diagonal.

5.... Qe7 looks interesting. After doing some analysis, it seems like the threat of Qb4 should deter White from playing Bg5. I will give 5...Qe7 a try. Thank you.

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talfan Junior Member Offline ironic ,me? Posts: 81 Brasil Gender:	Re: French Fort Knox (5.d5) Reply #4 - 06/15/10 at 14:51:14 I think 5... e5 is possible, folowing up with Bd6, Ne7, f6 if necessary, 0-0, maybe Bg4(f5) and Nd7, when black has easy and solid development and white lacks pawns breaks since he already played d5. Any thougths?
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BPaulsen

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Re: French Fort Knox (5.d5)
Reply #5 - 06/15/10 at 15:47:36

talfan wrote on 06/15/10 at 14:51:14:

I think 5... e5 is possible, folowing up with Bd6, Ne7, f6 if necessary, 0-0, maybe Bg4(f5) and Nd7, when black has easy and solid development and white lacks pawns breaks since he already played d5.

Any thougths?

After 5...e5 I'd be wary of the awkward Bd7, long-term.

White's 5. d5 does gain space, so losing out on pawn breaks isn't that big of a deal.

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Fromper

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Re: French Fort Knox (5.d5)
Reply #6 - 06/15/10 at 16:02:13

BPaulsen wrote on 06/15/10 at 05:26:33:

5...exd5 6. Qxd5 Nc6 seems straightforward enough, with black just aiming to develop, simplify, and draw.

Alternatively due to white's awkward Ne4, 5...Qe7 deserves thought intending 6. dxe6 Qxe6, and black can continue development with Bc6, Nd7, 0-0-0, etc. Optically this seems more ambitious.

But what if white doesn't take with 6. dxe6? It seems at first glance that black's pieces would be awkwardly placed.

BPaulsen wrote on 06/15/10 at 05:26:33:

Something of an axiom (at least to me) is that in unorthodox/counterintuitive opening variations (such as white's d5) the best responses tend to be unorthodox themselves. I've gotten in trouble plenty of times by trying to play the opening on auto-pilot instead of `playing chess` and figuring out the problems as they come.

Good thought.

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BPaulsen

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Re: French Fort Knox (5.d5)
Reply #7 - 06/15/10 at 16:11:33

Fromper wrote on 06/15/10 at 16:02:13:

BPaulsen wrote on 06/15/10 at 05:26:33:

5...exd5 6. Qxd5 Nc6 seems straightforward enough, with black just aiming to develop, simplify, and draw.

Alternatively due to white's awkward Ne4, 5...Qe7 deserves thought intending 6. dxe6 Qxe6, and black can continue development with Bc6, Nd7, 0-0-0, etc. Optically this seems more ambitious.

But what if white doesn't take with 6. dxe6? It seems at first glance that black's pieces would be awkwardly placed.

BPaulsen wrote on 06/15/10 at 05:26:33:

Something of an axiom (at least to me) is that in unorthodox/counterintuitive opening variations (such as white's d5) the best responses tend to be unorthodox themselves. I've gotten in trouble plenty of times by trying to play the opening on auto-pilot instead of `playing chess` and figuring out the problems as they come.

Good thought.

Black is threatening exd5, and I don't see anything white has of interest to stop black from playing it, and then developing extremely fast (now that no Q trade is available for white he has some awkward problems due to the Ne4).

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talfan

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Re: French Fort Knox (5.d5)
Reply #8 - 06/15/10 at 17:26:58

BPaulsen wrote on 06/15/10 at 15:47:36:

talfan wrote on 06/15/10 at 14:51:14:

I think 5... e5 is possible, folowing up with Bd6, Ne7, f6 if necessary, 0-0, maybe Bg4(f5) and Nd7, when black has easy and solid development and white lacks pawns breaks since he already played d5.

Any thougths?

After 5...e5 I'd be wary of the awkward Bd7, long-term.

White's 5. d5 does gain space, so losing out on pawn breaks isn't that big of a deal.

White already had a space advantage before 5.d5, and I don't think he gained much more with it. Of course Bd7 shall move agian, but so it is anyway in the normal variation, What black wants in the fort knox is easy development and rock solid position, albeit slight worse, and I still don't see what would refeute 5...e5. Of course I may be wrong, and 5...e5 may be poor, but I don't see yet.

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BPaulsen

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Re: French Fort Knox (5.d5)
Reply #9 - 06/15/10 at 18:20:25

talfan wrote on 06/15/10 at 17:26:58:

White already had a space advantage before 5.d5, and I don't think he gained much more with it. Of course Bd7 shall move agian, but so it is anyway in the normal variation, What black wants in the fort knox is easy development and rock solid position, albeit slight worse, and I still don't see what would refeute 5...e5. Of course I may be wrong, and 5...e5 may be poor, but I don't see yet.

The bolded is auto-pilot thinking. The nature of the position after 5. d5 e5 has nothing in common with a standard Fort Knox.

White should be slightly better (with much less effort than your typical Fort Knox) due to the space advantage. Of course there's no refutation because it doesn't lose by force.

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talfan

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Re: French Fort Knox (5.d5)
Reply #10 - 06/15/10 at 22:02:40

BPaulsen wrote on 06/15/10 at 18:20:25:

talfan wrote on 06/15/10 at 17:26:58:

White already had a space advantage before 5.d5, and I don't think he gained much more with it. Of course Bd7 shall move agian, but so it is anyway in the normal variation, What black wants in the fort knox is easy development and rock solid position, albeit slight worse, and I still don't see what would refeute 5...e5. Of course I may be wrong, and 5...e5 may be poor, but I don't see yet.

The bolded is auto-pilot thinking. The nature of the position after 5. d5 e5 has nothing in common with a standard Fort Knox.

White should be slightly better (with much less effort than your typical Fort Knox) due to the space advantage. Of course there's no refutation because it doesn't lose by force.

Don't know why do you know how I am thinking but then again since it will be harder to open the position the extra tempo should be of less significance, and not more. Also, white surely has a space advantage but not more than he had before.
Instead of demeaning my thought process could you please point out any flaws you think my suggestion had?

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Re: French Fort Knox (5.d5)
Reply #11 - 06/16/10 at 00:58:01

Tan Kien Wei wrote on 06/15/10 at 09:50:50:

Hi all,

My opponent took the d5 pawn with Qxd5.

For instance after
6. Qxd5 Nc6
7. Bg5 Be7
8. O-O-O, with pressure on d7 and the option of Qb5 and Bc4, depending on how Black responds. In certain lines, if you were to chase away the g5 bishop with h6, the bishop can retreat to d2 and then c3, controlling the a1-h8 diagonal.

I think you are making this too hard. 8...Bg4 looks like a clean equalizer to me. Black hits the rook, forces material off the board.

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BPaulsen

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Re: French Fort Knox (5.d5)
Reply #12 - 06/16/10 at 08:59:07

talfan wrote on 06/15/10 at 22:02:40:

Don't know why do you know how I am thinking but then again since it will be harder to open the position the extra tempo should be of less significance, and not more. Also, white surely has a space advantage but not more than he had before.
Instead of demeaning my thought process could you please point out any flaws you think my suggestion had?

Check what I put in bolded letters from your last post - that's how I know what you're thinking.

White has a bigger space advantage after d5 being met by ...e5 than the Pd4 versus a Pe6. It's not a change in structure black desires. The problem is the idea itself, while playable (+=), doesn't attempt to challenge white's idea at all.

That's not even mentioning the concrete issue that white can pick up the bishop pair with 6. Qh5 if he so pleases (6...Bd6 is nearly forced, and white can play Nxd6 at will).

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talfan

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Re: French Fort Knox (5.d5)
Reply #13 - 06/16/10 at 13:42:10

BPaulsen wrote on 06/16/10 at 08:59:07:

talfan wrote on 06/15/10 at 22:02:40:

Don't know why do you know how I am thinking but then again since it will be harder to open the position the extra tempo should be of less significance, and not more. Also, white surely has a space advantage but not more than he had before.
Instead of demeaning my thought process could you please point out any flaws you think my suggestion had?

Check what I put in bolded letters from your last post - that's how I know what you're thinking.

White has a bigger space advantage after d5 being met by ...e5 than the Pd4 versus a Pe6. It's not a change in structure black desires. The problem is the idea itself, while playable (+=), doesn't attempt to challenge white's idea at all.

That's not even mentioning the concrete issue that white can pick up the bishop pair with 6. Qh5 if he so pleases (6...Bd6 is nearly forced, and white can play Nxd6 at will).

No you do not know how I am thinking. I said that the closing of the position makes the loss of tempo less of a problem and you didnt adress that. What do you thnik if I said that you are on autopilot because you deem the bishop's pair an absolute advantage regardless of the position?
About Qh5 it really seems pretty good because of not only what you pointed out ( again the loss of the bishop pair is not so relevant as in the normal fort knox ) but also if Bg5 seems strong against both Bd6 or Qe7 aiming to damage blacks structure after ...Nf6. That Qh5 idea ( which I did not saw at first ) may be even +/- so after seeing that I think ...e5 is indeed inferior.

So I must think other moves now Sad

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BPaulsen

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Re: French Fort Knox (5.d5)
Reply #14 - 06/16/10 at 14:37:25

talfan wrote on 06/16/10 at 13:42:10:

No you do not know how I am thinking. I said that the closing of the position makes the loss of tempo less of a problem and you didnt adress that. What do you thnik if I said that you are on autopilot because you deem the bishop's pair an absolute advantage regardless of the position?
About Qh5 it really seems pretty good because of not only what you pointed out ( again the loss of the bishop pair is not so relevant as in the normal fort knox ) but also if Bg5 seems strong against both Bd6 or Qe7 aiming to damage blacks structure after ...Nf6. That Qh5 idea ( which I did not saw at first ) may be even +/- so after seeing that I think ...e5 is indeed inferior.

So I must think other moves now Sad

.

So even you think ...e5 is mediocre now and obviously the Bd7 is in the way. It's not about the loss of tempo, it's about the fact it screws up black's piece coordination which is an issue when he has less space.

Did you really need to try to argue about it?

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