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King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence (Read 1682 times)
Jonathan Tait
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King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
06/29/10 at 21:16:00  
1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Nf3 h5!?

has anyone found a refutation yet? Smiley
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Jonathan Tait
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #1 - 06/30/10 at 13:57:23  
100 views 0 replies

I guess that's a "no" then
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #2 - 06/30/10 at 17:15:27  
Maybe because people are wondering why a refutation is needed?  Wink
Some googling turned up:
http://hem.passagen.se/tjmisha/thewagenbachdef.html
Perhaps reading this will encourage some discussion.
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Jonathan Tait
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #3 - 07/01/10 at 09:02:20  
linksspringer wrote on 06/30/10 at 17:15:27:
Maybe because people are wondering why a refutation is needed?  Wink
Some googling turned up:
http://hem.passagen.se/tjmisha/thewagenbachdef.html
Perhaps reading this will encourage some discussion.


Okay then Smiley, quoting Thomas Johansson from that site:

Quote:
What is the point of 3...h5 - ? The main idea is, given the time, to play ...h4 and ...g5, erecting a pawn fortress on the kingside.


Exactly so.

Quote:
If White tries to stop this with 4.h4 Black can choose from 4...d5 5.ed5 Nf6 (...Ne7!?) or 4...Nf6 5.e5 Ng4 when Black seems to have an improved version of the Modern or the Schallopp.

My first reaction was that 4.d4 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ne5 d6 7.Nd3 must be good for White… The question is whether Black has improved on the Long Whip or if White has an improved version of the Berlin Defence, (i.e. Black has played ...h5 instead of ...Nf6). However, it seems that White's position isn't all that comfortable after all.


Johansson gives an "old main line" 4.d4 g5 5.Bc4 h4 6.0-0 d6 7.Nc3 c6 8.Nxg5 and a "positional main line" 4.Bc4 h4 5.b3 – though I'm not sure (several years on) that either of these is really dangerous for Black. The critical line seems to be: 4.d4 g5 5.Bc4 h4 6.Nc3 (by whatever move order) 6...d6 7 e5, forcing through in the centre before Black is ready (after ...c7-c6) to answer it with ...d6-d5.

A few games:

[Event "correspondence thematic"]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[White "Tait, JA."]
[Black "Nightingale, Darrell"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C34"]

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 h5 4.Bc4 h4 5.Nc3 d6 6.d4 g5 7.e5 Bg4 8.Qe2 Be7 9.e6 f5 10.h3 Bh5 11.Qd3 Nh6 12.d5 O-O 13.Bd2 a5 14.O-O Na6 15.Bxa6 Rxa6 16.Rae1 Bf6 17.Nb5 Qe7 18.Nbd4 Be8 19.Kh1 c5 20.Nxf5 Qh7 21.Nxh6+ Qxh6 22.e7 Rf7 23.Qf5 Ra8 24.Qe6 1-0

[Event "correspondence thematic"]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[White "Nightingale, Darrell"]
[Black "Tait, JA."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C34"]

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 h5 4.Bc4 h4 5.d4 g5 6.0-0 d6 7.Nc3 Bh6 (7...c6) 8.e5 (i.e. 6.Nc3 d6 7.e5 Bh6 8.0-0) 8...Bg4 9.Qe1 Ne7 10.exd6 cxd6 11.Nxg5 Bxg5 12.Ne4 Qb6 13.Bxf7+ Kxf7 14.Nxg5+ Ke8 15.Rxf4 Bc8 16.c4 h3 17.Be3 Rg8 18.Qf2 Qa5 19.Rf7 Nbc6 20.Bd2 Rxg5 21.Rf8+ Kd7 22.Bxa5 Rxg2+ 23.Qxg2 hxg2 24.Bc3 d5 25.h4 dxc4 26.h5 b5 27.h6 Bb7 28.Rxa8 Bxa8 29.h7 Ng6 30.Kxg2 1-0

[Event "www.ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2008.??.??"]
[White "taquin"]
[Black "tsmenace"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C34"]

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 h5 4.Bc4 h4 5.d4 g5 6.Nc3 d6 7.e5 Nc6 8.Qe2 dxe5 9.d5 Nce7 10.Nxe5 Bg7 11.Bd2 Qd6 12.Ne4 Qxe5 13.Bc3 Bg4 14.Qd3 Qf5 15.Bxg7 Rh7 16.Bb5+ Kd8 17.d6 Nd5 18.h3 c6 19.hxg4 Qxg4 20.Bc3 f5 21.Nf2 Qh5 22.Ba5+ Nb6 23.Bc4 Nh6 24.0-0 g4 25.Qd4 h3 26.Qf6+ Kd7 27.Be6+ Ke8 28.Rfe1 1-0

Any suggestions for Black?
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breizatao
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #4 - 07/01/10 at 14:04:30  
Quote:
Any suggestions for Black?


Hello Jonathan!

I have played an interesting game but not in favour of Black.

Fournier Frédéric (FRA)
Lane Michael (WLS)
Corr
20/07/2004
[Fournier, F]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. Bc4 h4 6. O-O d6 7. Nc3
c6
8. Bxf7!? Kxf7 9. Nxg5 Ke8? [9... Qxg5 10. Bxf4 Qg4 11. Be5 Nf6 12. Bxf6 Qxd1 13. Raxd1 Rh7 14. Bxh4 Kg8 15. Bg5 not clear] 10. Rxf4 [10. Bxf4!? Bg7 11. Qd3 Ne7 (11... Nh6!) 12. Qc4 d5 13. exd5 cxd5 14. Qb5 Nbc6 15. Nf7 Qd7 16. Nxh8 Bxh8 17. Rae1 +=] 10... Nf6 11. Be3 [11. Qe2 with idea e5!?] 11... Qe7 12. e5! dxe5 13. dxe5 Nbd7 14. e6 ± Bh6 15. Rxh4 Ne5 16. Qd4 Nfg4 [16... Ng6 17. Rh3 Bg7 18. Rxh8 Bxh8 19. Nf7 Bxe6 20. Nxh8 c5 (20... Nxh8? 21. Bg5 +-) 21. Qd3 Nxh8 22. Bg5 +-] 17. Rxg4 Bg7 18. Nce4 Nxg4 19. Nd6 [1:0]
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Jonathan Tait
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #5 - 07/01/10 at 15:44:47  
breizatao wrote on 07/01/10 at 14:04:30:
Hello Jonathan!

I have played an interesting game but not in favour of Black.


Thanks for this — it's now entered my database Smiley. What tournament was it?

As you say, 9...Ke8 was a mistake; instead 9...Qxg5 10 Bxf4 Qg4 11 Be5+ Nf6 12 Bxf6 and now Black has mostly played 12...Bg7; e.g.

[Event "www.ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2009.??.??"]
[White "barri"]
[Black "tsmenace"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. Bc4 h4 5. d4 g5 6. 0-0 d6 7. Nc3 c6 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. Nxg5+ Qxg5 10. Bxf4 Qg4 11. Be5+ Nf6 12. Bxf6 Bg7 13. Be5+ Kg8 14. Bxd6 h3 15. Qxg4 Bxg4 16. e5 hxg2 17. Rf2 Nd7 18. Re1 Be6 19. Ne4 Rh4 20. Be7 Rg4 21. h3 Rg6 22. Rxg2 Rxg2+ 23. Kxg2 Bd5 24. Kg3 Kf7 25. Bg5 Bxe4 26. Rxe4 Ke6 27. Rg4 c5 28. c3 cxd4 29. cxd4 Rh8 30. Be3 Bf8 31. Rh4 Rxh4 32. Kxh4 Kf5 33. Kg3 Ke4 34. Bf2 Bh6 35. Kg4 Nf8 36. h4 Bc1 37. b3 Ne6 38. h5 a6 39. a4 Ng7 40. Bg1 Bh6 ½-½

White did well to draw this endgame, though maybe Black could improve somewhere.

But it's not the critical line since White castled on move 6, instead of playing 6 Nc3 and 7 e5.
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #6 - 07/02/10 at 01:13:27  
Jonathan Tait wrote on 07/01/10 at 09:02:20:
[Event "correspondence thematic"]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[White "Nightingale, Darrell"]
[Black "Tait, JA."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C34"]

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 h5 4.Bc4 h4 5.d4 g5 6.0-0 d6 7.Nc3 Bh6 (7...c6) 8.e5 (i.e. 6.Nc3 d6 7.e5 Bh6 8.0-0) 8...Bg4 9.Qe1 Ne7 10.exd6 cxd6 11.Nxg5 Bxg5 12.Ne4 Qb6 13.Bxf7+ Kxf7 14.Nxg5+ Ke8 15.Rxf4 Bc8 16.c4 h3 17.Be3 Rg8 18.Qf2 Qa5 19.Rf7 Nbc6 20.Bd2 Rxg5 21.Rf8+ Kd7 22.Bxa5 Rxg2+ 23.Qxg2 hxg2 24.Bc3 d5 25.h4 dxc4 26.h5 b5 27.h6 Bb7 28.Rxa8 Bxa8 29.h7 Ng6 30.Kxg2 1-0
[...]
Any suggestions for Black?

Instead of 8...Bg4 the PC suggests 8...Nc6 9.Re1 Kf8, but White is better after 10.e6 fxe6 11.Bxe6 (or 11.d5) Bxe6 12.Rxe6 Qd7 13.d5 Nd8 14.Re2 +=.
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #7 - 07/02/10 at 09:30:52  
Quote:
Thanks for this — it's now entered my database Smiley. What tournament was it?


The tournament was a thematic tournament of the Northern Lights Chessclub by postal chess.

In your game: 12...Qxd1 13.Raxd1 Rh5 14.Bxh4 Kg8 15.Bg3 Nd7 followed by Nb6 seems interesting.

I play at www.chessworld.net, but I am not premium. If you want to play a thematic game on Wagenbach Gambit, you can challenge me. My nickname is breizatao.  Wink
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #8 - 07/02/10 at 10:08:01  
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/02/10 at 01:13:27:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 07/01/10 at 09:02:20:
[Event "correspondence thematic"]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[White "Nightingale, Darrell"]
[Black "Tait, JA."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C34"]

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 h5 4.Bc4 h4 5.d4 g5 6.0-0 d6 7.Nc3 Bh6 (7...c6) 8.e5 (i.e. 6.Nc3 d6 7.e5 Bh6 8.0-0) 8...Bg4 9.Qe1 Ne7 10.exd6 cxd6 11.Nxg5 Bxg5 12.Ne4 Qb6 13.Bxf7+ Kxf7 14.Nxg5+ Ke8 15.Rxf4 Bc8 16.c4 h3 17.Be3 Rg8 18.Qf2 Qa5 19.Rf7 Nbc6 20.Bd2 Rxg5 21.Rf8+ Kd7 22.Bxa5 Rxg2+ 23.Qxg2 hxg2 24.Bc3 d5 25.h4 dxc4 26.h5 b5 27.h6 Bb7 28.Rxa8 Bxa8 29.h7 Ng6 30.Kxg2 1-0
[...]
Any suggestions for Black?

Instead of 8...Bg4 the PC suggests 8...Nc6 9.Re1 Kf8, but White is better after 10.e6 fxe6 11.Bxe6 (or 11.d5) Bxe6 12.Rxe6 Qd7 13.d5 Nd8 14.Re2 +=.


Hallo Stefan! However, what do you think of the following variation? 8... h3 9.g3! g4!? (9... Nc6 followed of g4 is interesting) 10. exd6 gxf3 11. Qxf3 Qxd6 12. Nb5 Qf6!? 13. Nxc7+ Kd8 (the only move) 14. Nxa8 Qxd4+ 15. Rf2 (now 15. Qf2) 15... Qxc4 16. Bxf4 Bxf4 followed by Qc6. It is unclear but Black is not losing, he seems to me.
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #9 - 07/02/10 at 11:54:55  
Hello breizatao. In your line 13.Bxf4! Bxf4 14.Rae1+ wins. However, 9...Nc6 10.exd6 cxd6 11.d5 Qb6+ 12.Kh1 Ne5 looks sound. White has a slight plus (13.Bb5+; 13.Nxe5), but not more.
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Jonathan Tait
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #10 - 07/02/10 at 13:29:12  
Thanks for that Smiley. Interesting stuff.

But Black is still worse in those lines and I don't want to be worse at all if I can help it. So I pretty much gave up on 7...Bh6 a few years ago. At the moment 7...Nc6 looks like it offers the best chances. A couple more games and a bit of analysis:

[Event "www.ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2009"]
[White "segovia"]
[Black "tsmenace"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C34"]

1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Nf3 h5 4 d4 g5 5 Bc4 h4 6 Nc3 d6 7 e5 Nc6 8 exd6 Bxd6 9 Ne4 Be7 10 d5 h3!? 11 dxc6 Qxd1+ 12 Kxd1 hxg2 13 Rg1 g4 14 Nd4 f3 15 Bf4 bxc6 16 Kd2 Bb7 17 Ke3 Nf6 18 Nxf6+ Bxf6 19 Nb3 0-0-0 20 Kf2 Rhe8 21 Kg3 c5 22 Bb5 Rh8 23 Kf2 Be4 24 c3 Bd3 25 a4 a6 26 Bxd3 Rxd3 27 Rgd1 c4 0-1

[Event "www.ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2009"]
[White "pickle47"]
[Black "tsmenace"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C34"]

1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Nf3 h5 4 Bc4 h4 5 d4 g5 6 Nc3 d6 7 e5 Nc6 8 Qe2 dxe5 9 Nxe5 Nxe5 10 Qxe5+ Qe7 11 Nd5 Qxe5+ 12 dxe5 Kd8 13 Nf6 Nxf6 14 exf6 Rh6 15 Bd2 Rxf6 16 Bc3 Rd6 17 Bb4 Rd4 18 Bxf8 Rxc4 19 0-0-0+ Ke8 20 Bh6 f6 21 Rhe1+ Kf7 22 Rd8 Rxc2+ 23 Kb1 Bf5 24 Rxa8 Re2+ 0-1

As regards...

[Event "www.ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2008"]
[White "taquin"]
[Black "tsmenace"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C34"]

1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Nf3 h5 4 Bc4 h4 5 d4 g5 6 Nc3 d6 7 e5 Nc6 8 Qe2 dxe5 9 d5 Nce7 10 Nxe5 [10 Nxg5 Ng6] 10...Bg7 11 Bd2 [11 Bb5+ Kf8; and 11 d6 Qxd6 12 Nxf7 Bxc3+ 13 bxc3 Qf6; and 11 Nf3 Bg4 12 Bd2 Qd6 13 Ne4 Qb6 seem okay for Black] 11...Qd6 12 Ne4! Qxe5 [or 12...Qh6 13 Nxf7! Kxf7 14 d6+ Kg6 15 dxe7 Nxe7 16 0-0-0 and White must be better here] 13 Bc3 Bg4 14 Qd3 Qf5 15 Bxg7 Rh7 16 Bb5+ Kd8 17 d6! Nd5 [17...Rxg7 18 dxe7+ Kxe7 19 Qa3+; 17...cxd6 18 Qxd6+ Kc8 19 Rd1!] 18 h3! c6 [18...Bh5 19 dxc7+ Kxc7 20 Qc4+ Kb8 21 Nc5 wins] 19 hxg4 Qxg4 20 Bc3 f5 21 Nf2 Qh5 22 Ba5+ Nb6 23 Bc4 Nh6 24 0-0 g4 25 Qd4 h3 26 Qf6+ Kd7 27 Be6+ Ke8 28 Rfe1 1-0

...there is 11...h3!? which changes the position in interesting ways; e.g. 12 g3 fxg3 [can White allow 12...g2 - ?] 13 hxg3 Qd6 and now if 14 Ne4 Qxe5 15 Bc3 Bg4 16 Qd3 Qf5 17 Bxg7 Black has 17...Bf3!, or 12 gxh3 Rxh3 13 0-0-0 Qd6 14 Rde1 [this time 14 Ne4 Qxe5 15 Bc3 fails to 15...Rxc3, while 14 Nxf7 Kxf7 15 Nb5 Qe5 16 d6+ Kg6 17 Qxe5 Bxe5 18 Nxc7 Rb8 19 dxe7 Nxe7 is better for Black] 14...Qxe5 15 Qxe5 Bxe5 16 Rxe5 f6 and Black seems okay here.

Can you see anything wrong with this?

breizatao wrote on 07/02/10 at 09:30:52:
I play at www.chessworld.net, but I am not premium. If you want to play a thematic game on Wagenbach Gambit, you can challenge me. My nickname is breizatao.  Wink


Actually I have a thematic tournament due to start on ChessWorld. Check: Opponents, Join Tournaments, Join a thematic tournament.

I am "tsmenace" btw Wink
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #11 - 07/02/10 at 14:29:55  
Jonathan Tait wrote on 07/02/10 at 13:29:12:
At the moment 7...Nc6 looks like it offers the best chances. A couple more games and a bit of analysis:
[...]
[Event "www.ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2008"]
[White "taquin"]
[Black "tsmenace"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C34"]

1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Nf3 h5 4 Bc4 h4 5 d4 g5 6 Nc3 d6 7 e5 Nc6 8 Qe2 dxe5 9 d5 Nce7 10 Nxe5 [10 Nxg5 Ng6] 10...Bg7 11 Bd2 [11 Bb5+ Kf8; and 11 d6 Qxd6 12 Nxf7 Bxc3+ 13 bxc3 Qf6; and 11 Nf3 Bg4 12 Bd2 Qd6 13 Ne4 Qb6 seem okay for Black]

However, after 13...Qf6 (above), there can follow: 14.0-0 Rh7 15.Nxg5! Qxg5 16.Bxf4 (or 16.Rxf4), wining back the piece with a nice plus (+/-).
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Jonathan Tait
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #12 - 07/02/10 at 15:27:00  
great - I've been looking at this for ages and you refuted it in five minutes - lol

back to the drawing board
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #13 - 07/02/10 at 16:41:47  
But the line in reply #6 should be OK:
(1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 h5 4.Bc4 h4 5.d4 g5 6.0-0 d6 7.Nc3 Bh6 8.e5) "8...Nc6 9.Re1 Kf8, but White is better after 10.e6 fxe6 11.Bxe6 (or 11.d5) Bxe6 12.Rxe6 Qd7 13.d5 Nd8 14.Re2 +=."

14...Rh7 15.Qd3 (15.Ne4 Qf5) Re7, almost =.

(edit: But 11. d5 Na5 12.Bf1 e5 13.b4 g4 14.Nd2 Nc6 15.dxc6 bxc6 is a mess.)
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #14 - 07/02/10 at 19:29:17  
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/02/10 at 16:41:47:
But the line in reply #6 should be OK:
(1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 h5 4.Bc4 h4 5.d4 g5 6.0-0 d6 7.Nc3 Bh6 8.e5) "8...Nc6 9.Re1 Kf8, but White is better after 10.e6 fxe6 11.Bxe6 (or 11.d5) Bxe6 12.Rxe6 Qd7 13.d5 Nd8 14.Re2 +=."

14...Rh7 15.Qd3 (15.Ne4 Qf5) Re7, almost =.

(edit: But 11. d5 Na5 12.Bf1 e5 13.b4 g4 14.Nd2 Nc6 15.dxc6 bxc6 is a mess.)


or in the edit: 12 dxe6!? Nxc4 13 Qd4.

But now I'm back looking at: 6 Nc3 d6 7 e5 Nc6 8 Qe2 dxe5 9 d5 Nce7 10 Nxe5 Bg7 and

Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/02/10 at 14:29:55:
11 d6 Qxd6 12 Nxf7 Bxc3+ 13 bxc3 Qf6 14.0-0 Rh7 15.Nxg5! Qxg5 16.Bxf4 (or 16.Rxf4), wining back the piece with a nice plus (+/-).


with 16 Bxf4 Qg4 or 16 Rxf4 Bf5, since White is actually still a piece down here.

Obviously White has massive compensation, but maybe there's a way for Black to defend.
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #15 - 07/02/10 at 20:04:29  
Jonathan Tait wrote on 07/02/10 at 19:29:17:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/02/10 at 16:41:47:
But the line in reply #6 should be OK:
(1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 h5 4.Bc4 h4 5.d4 g5 6.0-0 d6 7.Nc3 Bh6 8.e5) "8...Nc6 9.Re1 Kf8, but White is better after 10.e6 fxe6 11.Bxe6 (or 11.d5) Bxe6 12.Rxe6 Qd7 13.d5 Nd8 14.Re2 +=."

14...Rh7 15.Qd3 (15.Ne4 Qf5) Re7, almost =.

(edit: But 11. d5 Na5 12.Bf1 e5 13.b4 g4 14.Nd2 Nc6 15.dxc6 bxc6 is a mess.)


or in the edit: 12 dxe6!? Nxc4 13 Qd4.
But now I'm back looking at: 6 Nc3 d6 7 e5 Nc6 8 Qe2 dxe5 9 d5 Nce7 10 Nxe5 Bg7 and

Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/02/10 at 14:29:55:
11 d6 Qxd6 12 Nxf7 Bxc3+ 13 bxc3 Qf6 14.0-0 Rh7 15.Nxg5! Qxg5 16.Bxf4 (or 16.Rxf4), wining back the piece with a nice plus (+/-).


with 16 Bxf4 Qg4 or 16 Rxf4 Bf5, since White is actually still a piece down here.
Obviously White has massive compensation, but maybe there's a way for Black to defend.

The first highlighted variation: 13...Rh7 14.Qxc4 Re7 15.b3! may in fact be good (15.Qd5 Rg7! 16.Qd3 Ne7 17.Nd4 Kg8, about =)

The position after 16...Qg4: I am glad that your optimism is back. It seems I have exaggerated, White cannot win back the piece by force. However, after e.g. 17.Rf3 h3 18.Re1 Bd7 19.Bxc7 Black's problems are quite serious.
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #16 - 07/09/10 at 04:05:43  
I am not as masterly as maestros Buecker and Tait but it would seem at first glance that with all the tempos being given away as Black (exf4, h5 & h4 and g5) that a peice for pawn(s) and initative might be a consideration for White?
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #17 - 07/09/10 at 15:34:54  
HTH wrote on 07/09/10 at 04:05:43:
I am not as masterly as maestros Buecker and Tait but it would seem at first glance that with all the tempos being given away as Black (exf4, h5 & h4 and g5) that a peice for pawn(s) and initative might be a consideration for White?
HTH


you're right, it often is — but working out whether it is in any particular position depends on analysis
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #18 - 07/13/10 at 17:01:45  
If Black is struggling to find a decent reply to 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 h5 4.Bc4 h4 5.d4 g5 6.Nc3 d6 7.e5(!), can we try to avoid it with 6...Nc6!? (instead of the customary 6...d6)?

Some ideas:
(i) 7.e5 d5!
(ii) 7.d5 Na5
(iii) 7.0-0 d6 8.e5 (8.d5 Ne5; and of course the sacs on f7+g5, but I think Black is OK) 8...dxe5 and on with the game...
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #19 - 07/13/10 at 18:03:37  
Paul Cumbers wrote on 07/13/10 at 17:01:45:
If Black is struggling to find a decent reply to 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 h5 4.Bc4 h4 5.d4 g5 6.Nc3 d6 7.e5(!), can we try to avoid it with 6...Nc6!? (instead of the customary 6...d6)?

Some ideas:
(i) 7.e5 d5!
(ii) 7.d5 Na5
(iii) 7.0-0 d6 8.e5 (8.d5 Ne5; and of course the sacs on f7+g5, but I think Black is OK) 8...dxe5 and on with the game...


Hi Paul Smiley

I'm playing the White side of 6...d6 7 e5 in my ChessWorld thematic tournament (mentioned above) and Black has gone 7...Bh6 8 0-0 h3 9 g3 Nc6 (see Fournier/Bücker above), probably following this very thread. It doesn't actually look too bad for Black.

As for 6...Nc6, what would you play after 7 d5 Na5 8 Be2 - ? I had this as White in my last CW thematic and gained a massive position (which I blundered to a draw right at the end).
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #20 - 07/14/10 at 14:12:46  
Quote:
I had this as White in my last CW thematic and gained a massive position (which I blundered to a draw right at the end).


Just curious, how is it possible "to blunder" in corr?

Did you send another move than the one intended or did you not use an engine?
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #21 - 07/14/10 at 16:40:06  
TalJechin wrote on 07/14/10 at 14:12:46:
Just curious, how is it possible "to blunder" in corr?


several reasons:

1) I don't play CW games as correspondence games.
2) I moved too quickly.
3) The win/draw was quite subtle and concerned a single tempo.

[Event "www.ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010.??.??"]
[White "tsmenace"]
[Black "Aethelbald"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. Bc4 h4 5. d4 g5 6. Nc3 Nc6 7. d5 Na5 8. Be2 Bg7 9. Qd3 d6 10. b4 g4 11. Nd2 h3 12. g3 f3 13. Bd1 Nf6 14. bxa5 Nd7 15. 0-0 Ne5 16. Qe3 c6 17. a6 bxa6 18. dxc6 Nxc6 19. Nb3 Rb8 20. Nd5 Bxa1 21. Nxa1 Be6 22. Nb3 Ne5 23. Nd4 Bxd5 24. exd5 Rb7 25. Nc6 (this turns out to be far more difficult than I'd anticipated) 25...Qb6 26. Nxe5 dxe5 27. c4 Qxe3+ 28. Bxe3 Rb2 29. Rf2 Rb1 30. Rd2 Kd7 31. Kf2 f5 32. c5 Rb4 33. a3 Rc4 34. Bb3 Rc3 35. Rb2 Rb8 36. Ba4+ Kc8 37. Bd7+ Kc7 38. Rxb8 Rc2+ 39. Kf1 Kxb8 40. Bxf5 Rxh2 41. Bxg4 Re2 42. Bg5 Rg2 43. Bxh3 Rxg3 44. d6 Rxg5 45. c6 Rg8 46. Kf2 Rf8 47. Bf1 e4 48. Bxa6?? Rc8! 49. Bb5 a6! ½-½

due to 50 c7+ Rxc7 51 dxc7+ Kxc7 52 Bxa6 Kb6 and White cannot make progress; whereas 48 Ke3 wins, e.g. 48...Rc8 49 c7+ Rxc7 50 dxc7+ Kxc7 51 Kxe4 Kb6 52 Kd4 Ka5 53 Kc3 Ka4 54 Kb2 etc.
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Re: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #22 - 07/15/10 at 19:16:28  
Jonathan Tait wrote on 07/13/10 at 18:03:37:
Hi Paul Smiley

I'm playing the White side of 6...d6 7 e5 in my ChessWorld thematic tournament (mentioned above) and Black has gone 7...Bh6 8 0-0 h3 9 g3 Nc6 (see Fournier/Bücker above), probably following this very thread. It doesn't actually look too bad for Black.

As for 6...Nc6, what would you play after 7 d5 Na5 8 Be2 - ? I had this as White in my last CW thematic and gained a massive position (which I blundered to a draw right at the end).

Ah, you are already two steps ahead of me! I've looked at 6...Nc6 7.d5 Na5 8.Be2 more closely now, and that knight on a5 is really awkward for Black... not to be recommended.

Actually, I lost the thread of the thread, and didn't realise there was a viable line for Black after 6...d6 7.e5 (i.e. 7...Bh6 8 0-0 h3 9 g3 Nc6). No need to look for alternatives on move 6 just yet Wink

Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/02/10 at 11:54:55:
9...Nc6 10.exd6 cxd6 11.d5 Qb6+ 12.Kh1 Ne5 looks sound. White has a slight plus (13.Bb5+; 13.Nxe5), but not more.

This looks completely unclear to me - too early to say whether White has an edge or not. White's king is as shaky as Black's Wink
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