https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?board=archa Archangel - ChessPub Forum en-us ChessPub Forum Wed, 19 Aug 2026 09:27:45 GMT http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss 30 https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1326131016 ChessPub Forum/Archangel https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1326131016 Fri, 16 Jan 2026 21:14:36 GMT <a href="https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1326131016/27#27">BobbyDigital80 wrote</a> on 08/24/18 at 00:16:47:<br /><div id="4A676A6A714C616F617C696430380800">I would play the 6...Bb7 Archangel if it weren’t for 7.d3. That kills all the fun out of the opening. If this line were good for Black, then the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5.d3 b5 6.Bb3 Bb7 would be played. And maybe even 5.0-0 Be7 6.d3 b5 7.Bb3 Bb7.  </div><!--4A676A6A714C616F617C696430380800--><br />I understand your argument. I too thought the <b>answer </b>to ...Bb7 was d3.<br /><br />There is a new Ebook at ForwardChess:<br />The Original Arkhangelsk by Tibor Karoly, Dec 16, 2025<br /><br />He includes a sample game which starts:<br />1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O b5 6. Bb3 Bb7 7. d3 Bd6!?<br /><br /><table border='0' cellspacing='0' cellpadding='0'> <tr> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/br40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/bq40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/bk40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/br40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/bb40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/bp40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/bp40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/bp40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/bp40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/bp40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/bp40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/bn40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/bb40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/bn40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/bp40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/bp40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/wp40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/wb40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/wp40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/wn40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/wp40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/wp40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/wp40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/wp40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/wp40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/wp40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/wr40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/wn40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/wb40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/wq40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/wr40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/wk40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> <td width='40' height='40'><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/e40.gif' width='40' height='40' border='0' alt='*' /></td> </tr> </table><img src='/yabbfiles/Chess/white.gif' border='0' height='16' width='16' alt='*' /><br />Frankly, the bishop looks ugly to me on d6. However in subsequent play black plays ...0-0 ...h6 ...Re8 and ...Bf8. Black gets the same positioning of pieces as in the Zaitsev.<br /><br />I don't know how much the author relies on ...Bd6 as one of his sample games has black playing ...Bc5 instead.<br /><br />The author explains his book better than I can. However, I'll mention my thoughts as they are the only ones I have. After ...Bb7 and d3, the bishop "bites on granite." ok. On the other hand, d3 never struck me as being as good as d4. Yet the chess world has come to accept d3 in the Ruy Lopez and Italian game.<br /><br />Perhaps ...Bd6-f8 adds to the discussion. The bishop initially supports the e-pawn then proceeds as in the Zaitsev and Breyer variations. On d6, the bishop is less vulnerable to d4 than would be the case if it were on c5.<br /><br />Time and practice will tell. For the moment, anyone who liked the original Archangel should be interested in this Ebook.<br /> https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1435709403 ChessPub Forum/Archangel https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1435709403 Thu, 25 Mar 2021 23:56:53 GMT <a href="https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1435709403/26#26">an ordinary chessplayer wrote</a> on 03/24/21 at 22:23:34:<br /><div id="3B3E383F34343F2E6C6B5A01"><a href="https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1435709403/22#22">GMTonyKosten wrote</a> on 03/23/21 at 17:17:34:<br /><div id="606A7348495E6C48545342492703">after <b>1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 O-O Bc5</b> a lot of my opponents play <b>6 Re1</b> </div><!--3B3E383F34343F2E6C6B5A01--><br /><a href="https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1435709403/25#25">GMTonyKosten wrote</a> on 03/24/21 at 22:10:08:<br /><div id="606A7348495E6C48545342492702">I don't think there is much chance of this being seen in a serious game, though, as everyone plays 6 c3. </div><!--606A7348495E6C48545342492702--><br />Have you tried 5...b5 ? It sounds like sometimes you will get a free piece after 6.Re1. Then after they figure that out, you can switch to 5...Bc5 and get a free tempo after 6.Bb3. </div><!--606A7348495E6C48545342492703--><br /><br />Sorry, I don’t follow. <br />What is the theoretical argument here? https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1607008433 ChessPub Forum/Archangel https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1607008433 Wed, 20 Jan 2021 20:16:30 GMT <a href="https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1607008433/12#12">Konstriktor wrote</a> on 01/20/21 at 11:22:19:<br /><div id="0722283F244D04">Vs. The Exchange with 5.0-0 he gives 5...Bg4<br /> </div><!--0722283F244D04--><br /><br />Thank you. <br /> https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1352710148 ChessPub Forum/Archangel https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1352710148 Thu, 25 Jun 2020 22:31:59 GMT <a href="https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1352710148/2#2">Vass wrote</a> on 11/12/12 at 09:48:57:<br /><div id="033426265505">10...Qd7 is the main move in order to avoid such draw variations.<br />11...0-0-0!? (a new move) is to be considered, too..<br />Black can try even 16...Qg6!? - a move that is starting some hard to handle complications after 17.Nxh8 Qe8 18.Bf7?! Qd7 19.cxd4 (19.Bh5!?) 19...e3 20.d5 Bc5 and so on..  <img rel="&#58;D" src="https://www.chesspub.com/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/cheesy.gif" alt="Cheesy" title="Cheesy" /> </div><!--033426265505--><br />Yes, the engines think Black is at least equal with 10...Qd7. 10...Qd7 isn't even mentioned in the book "Archangel and New Archangel". https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1362765891 ChessPub Forum/Archangel https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1362765891 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 21:52:01 GMT Very late reply, but can't white then try 6.Bxc6 pretending it's the Anti-Berlin? The extra move a6 doesn't look to me like it makes a huge deal of difference. https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1491957605 ChessPub Forum/Archangel https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1491957605 Wed, 12 Apr 2017 02:42:08 GMT An historical bit is that Fine's <i>Practical Chess Openings</i> (1948) addressed this line in a note, stopping after 6. 0-0 Nge7 7. d4 ed 8.  Bg5 with a symbol meaning "White's position is distinctly superior, but a forced win is not yet demonstrable." https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1402816381 ChessPub Forum/Archangel https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1402816381 Tue, 29 Mar 2016 07:06:29 GMT Just wondering if there's any consensus on which move-order is the best?<br /><br />Between these 2:<br /><br />A: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5<br />and<br />B: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 b5 6.Bb3 Bc5. <br /><br />From my own brief research White seems to have an extra option to retreat his bishop to c2 in option A: 6.c3 b5 7.Bc2 (instead of 7.Bb3), in B: the bishop can only go to b3 because c3 hasn't been played yet.<br /><br />Option A seems to have independent value vs 6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.d4 now Black has choice between 7...b5 transposing into B's version of the Nxe5 line, or going for independent 7...Nxe4, both of which seem playable but 7...b5 is preferred by the engine.<br /><br />Therefore it seems to me that B should be preferred, as you get the same as A without having to learn the extra bishop retreat to c2.<br /><br />However! Perhaps a big benefit of A is White needs to know 6.c3 b5 7.Bb3 transposes to their line vs New Archangel (assuming they play the mainline vs New Archangel). Therefore perhaps option A gives White more room to go wrong in the opening, if they're unaware of this transposition. The price of learning the extra bishop retreat to c2 in option A may be worth the cost, if there's the chance White isn't aware of the transposition. I can see how someone surprised by 5...Bc5 move-order may go for 6.d3 protecting the pawn, or 6.Nc3 for same reasons. Both of which seem to give away all of White's opening advantage.<br /><br />Does anyone know of any other downside of Option A, apart from having to learn the extra bishop retreat to c2? I will continue to try and find one but haven't yet. At the top lvl they will ofc be aware of this transposition, so for them it makes sense to use option B to avoid having to bother learning a line for the extra bishop retreat, however, at lower levels, it may be worth going for option A. https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1411120979 ChessPub Forum/Archangel https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1411120979 Fri, 26 Sep 2014 01:55:08 GMT <a href="https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1411120979/10#10">MNb wrote</a> on 09/26/14 at 00:31:14:<br /><div id="60634F2D06">Then by all means play ...Bb7. Though it remains unclear why you ask the question<br /><br /><a href="https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1411120979/0#0">BobbyDigital80 wrote</a> on 09/19/14 at 10:02:58:<br /><div id="775A57574C715C525C4154590D053508">Is it okay to transpose into the Bb7 Archangel after 5.d3 in the Ruy Lopez? </div><!--60634F2D06--><br /><br />if you already know the answer:<br /><br /><a href="https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1411120979/9#9">BobbyDigital80 wrote</a> on 09/25/14 at 20:25:40:<br /><div id="6C414C4C576A4749475A4F42161E2E07">I think it's actually worse on g6.  </div><!--6C414C4C576A4749475A4F42161E2E07--><br /> </div><!--775A57574C715C525C4154590D053508--><br /><br />I didn't already know the answer. I thought it was okay but I wasn't sure if there was a specific variation that would make it bad, but ...Bg4 is definitely not better than ...Bb7. I don't see the point of ...Bg4.<br /> https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1383628313 ChessPub Forum/Archangel https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1383628313 Fri, 15 Nov 2013 23:55:44 GMT Vass I used to play like that when I played the Spanish as White, its a strange opening because there is so much theory but in the end you can kind of make it up as you go along using a reasonable basic theoretical knowledge and general strategic concepts also. My favourite opening I think for that reason. https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1365822521 ChessPub Forum/Archangel https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1365822521 Sat, 11 May 2013 07:31:05 GMT <a href="https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1365822520/5#5">BobbyDigital80 wrote</a> on 05/08/13 at 09:59:50:<br /><div id="18353838231E333D332E3B36626A5A09">In your line after 13.h3, Black has the brilliant reply 13...d6!!<br />Here are a few sample lines:<br />1) 14. hxg4 Bxg4 15. Nc2 Bxf3 16. gxf3 Qf6 17. Ne1 Qg6+ 18. Kh2 Qh5+ 19. Kg2 Qg6+ 20. Kh3 Qh5+ 21. Kg3 Qg6+ 22. Kh4 Rbe8 23. Ra6 Nc4<br /><br />White might be slightly better here but it's kind of unclear.<br /><br />2) 14. Nc2 Nxf3+ 15. Qxf3 Ne5 16. Qg3 Be6 =<br /><br />3) 14. Qe2 Nxf3+ 15. Qxf3 Ne5 16. Qg3 Be6 17. Bxe6 fxe6 18. Nxb5 Rxf2 19. Rxf2 Bxf2+ 20. Qxf2 Rxb5 21. Qe2 Rb8 22. Bf4 Qf6 23. Rf1 1/2-1/2 Anand Topalov, 2006<br /> </div><!--18353838231E333D332E3B36626A5A09--><br /><br />d6 is very nice indeed! nice find. very unbalanced. i'd probably take white in a correspondence game, and black over the board.