https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?board=twokn 2 Knights - ChessPub Forum en-us ChessPub Forum Sat, 11 Jul 2026 11:24:13 GMT http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss 30 https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1715504840 ChessPub Forum/2 Knights https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1715504840 Wed, 5 Jun 2024 00:19:20 GMT When I last looked at that line I thought there was still a fair amount of play in that position after 14.Qh4 (which John Emms discussed in 2000 in Play the Open Games as Black), but maybe it has been analysed in more depth sucking the life out of it, I don't know. I have sometimes played this 6.0-0 line myself with White but my opponents have never got as far as 9...Qd3, so I haven't really been tested in it. Black could consider 6...dxc3 heading for double-edged Göring Gambit positions after 7.Nxc3 d6 (7.e5 d5 8.exf6 dxc4 is also possible), which offer more winning chances for both sides, although it can be tricky to play as Black unless you really know what you're doing. 9...Qe7 instead of 9...Qd3 is another possibility, though I didn't really trust it when I last examined it.<br /><br />I agree that there are more drawish options available for White. My main objection has tended to be 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Bd2, where 7...Nxe4 8.Bxf7+ Kxf7 9.Qb3+ Kf8 10.Qxb4+ Qe7 is quite drawish and after 9...d5 White gets decent attacking chances in the lines where Black doesn't force an early queen trade. After 7...Bxd2+ 8.Nbxd2 d5 9.exd5 Nxd5 10.Qb3 Black must choose between allowing a draw with 10...Na5 or go relatively passive with 10...Nce7, which isn't bad, but I tend to prefer White in the resulting IQP positions.<br /><br />I recently played in a team vote chess game on Chess.com with the Ulvestad line 5...b5 6.Bf1 where we allowed the transposition to the Fritz with 6...Nd4 7.c3 Nxd5 8.cxd4 Qxg5, and won quite convincingly, but White must have erred somewhere after move 8 because that line is known to be better for White with best play. I saw Levy Rozman (GothamChess) analyse the Magnus game with 6...Nxd5 7.Bxb5 Bb7 etc., which looked nice. Magnus should really have won it but missed an opportunity late on and Gukesh then found a number of accurate moves. https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1648314162 ChessPub Forum/2 Knights https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1648314162 Sat, 26 Mar 2022 17:02:42 GMT With the popularity of 3 Bc4 at elite level in recent years it's not surprising that theory has been developing very quickly in the Two Knights.<br /><br />Jon Tait's new "Disreputable" book has some very interesting material on the Ulvestad 5...b5, arguing that Black doesn't have to transpose to the Fritz 5...Nd4, where Black still seems to be suffering theoretically.<br /><br />Tony K - thanks for the recent material at CPub on the Two Knights with 4 Ng5 d5 5 exd5 Na5 6 Bb5+ Bd7 - I've been trying this for Black in fast games online and I've been pleasantly surprised how much active play Black gets. Weaker players just exchange on d7, when Black is more than fine. After the critical 7 Qe2 though, Black must be very precise; the normally well-prepared Dubov failed to get enough play in a recent game as Black vs Aronian.<br /><br />But the main battleground at high level still seems to be 5...Na5 6 Bb5+ c6 7 dxc6 bxc6 and now Gunsberg's 8 Bd3, with horrendous complications, apparently based on deep engine analysis. Recent results have been heavily in White's favour.<br /><br />Tony K - could you give us a CPub update on the Gunsberg please, and maybe your overview of the Two Knights as a whole, with recommendations for Black? https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1383716852 ChessPub Forum/2 Knights https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1383716852 Fri, 28 Aug 2020 12:49:21 GMT <a href="https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1383716852/7#7">SWJediknight wrote</a> on 01/23/19 at 23:31:57:<br /><div id="1F1B062928252722252B24384C00">I'm currently using Stockfish 9 (I didn't know there was a newer version out already, time to upgrade!) and it also suggests your 9...Be7, but it offers 8.Bd3 as a possible improvement over 8.Bxd5.  Play is still complicated, but probably in White's favour.  8...h6 is most often played and is assessed as best by the computer, then 9.Nxf7 Kxf7 10.cxd4 exd4 11.0-0 was played in Bussom-Torres, email 2016, with White now playing for compensation for a pawn, but Black's exposed king offers White a lot of compensation.  A more popular line goes 9.Qh5 hxg5 10.Qxh8 e4 11.cxd4 exd3 with White up by an exchange for a pawn, but Black has potential to take over the initiative, so I prefer the line starting with 9.Nxf7.<br /><br />For many years 6.d4 has been regarded as superior to 6.Nxf7 and I have agreed, though when I've had this position as White I have gone for 6.Nxf7 as I have a better idea of what I am doing in the Fried Liver.  But the latest computers might end up overturning that as well, with Stockfish 9 (and 10, according to ChessBase's deep position search results) giving White a large plus after 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Ncb4 9.0-0 c6 10.d4. </div><!--1F1B062928252722252B24384C00--><br /><br />It has been a long time, folks...<br /><br />It is interesting reviewing this, many years afterwards. The game quoted above may not hold up to the scrutiny of the silicon beasts of today... Bussom's 15.Nc3 in the Bussom-Torres game looks cute, but the beasts Stockfish and LC0 seem to veer towards the simpler 15.Nd2 - and here I am not sure black can find much solace?<br /><br />However, the state of 6.Nxf7 is less clear - there are still some strong correspondence players willing to defend this as black, and who do an OK job of doing so!<br /><br />Any theory hawks here know the latest state of play?<br /> https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1283315840 ChessPub Forum/2 Knights https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1283315840 Mon, 20 Jan 2020 16:48:38 GMT <a href="https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1283315840/89#89">sloughter wrote</a> on 07/21/13 at 10:11:56:<br /><div id="253E343F362533083A3838332E083D25795701">1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. Nc3 d6 8.Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Qg6 10. dxc6 Qxg5 11. O-O Qh4 12. d3 bxc6 13. Be3 Bxe3 14.fxe3 Kd8 15. Qe1 Qxe1 16. Raxe1 Rb8 17. Bb3 Ke8 18. e4 Bd7 19. Re2 Rf8 20. Ref2<br />Rxf2 21. Kxf2 Ke7 22. Ke3 * </div><!--253E343F362533083A3838332E083D25795701--><br /><br />I didn't understand your 12. d3<br />why not 12. Bd5 maintaining advantage ?<br /><br /><br />1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. Nc3 d6 8.<br />Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Qg6 10. dxc6 Qxg5 11. O-O Qh4 12. Bd5! (your line starts with 12. d3 bxc6 13. Be3<br />Bxe3 14. fxe3 Kd8 15. Qe1 Qxe1 16. Raxe1 Rb8 17. Bb3 Ke8 18. e4 Bd7 19. Re2<br />Rf8 20. Ref2 Rxf2 21. Kxf2 Ke7 22. Ke3) 12... bxc6 13. Bxc6 Bg4 14. Qe1 Raf8<br />15. d3 Bd7 16. Be4 Rf6 17. b4 Bb6 18. Be3 g5 19. Qd2 Bxe3 20. fxe3 Rhf8 21.<br />Rxf6 Rxf6 22. Qe1 Qh5 23. a4 g4 24. b5 Qg5 25. Qg3 h6 26. Rf1 Rxf1+ 27. Kxf1 * maintains whites advantage IMHO https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1556057945 ChessPub Forum/2 Knights https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1556057945 Thu, 25 Apr 2019 20:36:42 GMT Hmm, I've never subscribed to the Chopin site, but I was planning to at some point in the future. I'm too late now apparently. <img rel="&#58;&#45;&#40;" src="https://www.chesspub.com/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/sad.gif" alt="Sad" title="Sad" /><br />I hope at least the material currently on the site can be saved and kept in circulation as one or more bundles available for purchase.<br /><br />My plan was to eventually follow both ChessPublishing, Chopin/Chess Openings 24-7 and CBM - all digital, continually updated sources that don't take up any shelf space (as physical-only, the NIC Yearbooks are behind the times in this respect). https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1529062283 ChessPub Forum/2 Knights https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1529062283 Fri, 22 Feb 2019 22:41:17 GMT As for the original question, there is a Stockfish-AlphaZero game where after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Bd3 Nd5 9.Nf3 Bd6 10. 0-0 Nf4 11. Re1 Nxd3 12.cxd3 0-0 13. Nxe5 c5 14. Nc3 Bb7 15. b3 Re8 16.Nc4, AlphaZero played 16...Nxc4 and won. <br /><br />Stockfish met 16...Nxc4 with 17.Rxe8+. <br /><br />Strangely the book "Game Changer" says that after 16...Nxc4, 17.dxc4(?) Rxe1+(?) 18.Qxe1 Bxh2+ 19. Kxh2 Qh4+ 20. Kg1 Bxg2 occurred in both correspondence games which reached this position and resulted in a draw by repetition a few moves later which which can't be right as 17...Qh4 simply wins for black (I'm assuming those correspondence games used the order 16...Rxe1 17.Qxe1 Nxc4 18.dxc4). https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1454357359 ChessPub Forum/2 Knights https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1454357359 Mon, 1 Feb 2016 21:32:13 GMT Reminiscent of some stuff in the Pin Variation of the Sicilian ...<br /><br />edited to add:  In Kasparov's Informant notes to his game against Anand in 1995, he gave 11...0-0?! 12. Bh6 g6 13. h4!? with attack.  Playing h4 instead of taking on f8 is a parallel to some old lines in the Pin. https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1443135111 ChessPub Forum/2 Knights https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1443135111 Sun, 27 Sep 2015 06:38:56 GMT 8. h3 does seem to dodge the complications, but it does offer black almost immediate equality. Something like 8...Be6 and 9...f6 just seems to be equal with a possible edge for black with his better central controol? https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1388223902 ChessPub Forum/2 Knights https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1388223902 Sun, 28 Jun 2015 11:41:12 GMT <a href="https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1388223902/0#0">sloughter wrote</a> on 12/28/13 at 09:45:01:<br /><div id="302B212A2330261D2F2D2D263B1D28306C4202">White has no real winning chances in the 9.Qe4 variation of the Fried Liver.<br /><br />1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Ncb4 9.Qe4 c6 10.a3 Na6 11.d4 Nac7 12.Bf4 Kf7 13.Bxe5 Be6 14.O-O Bd6 15.f4 Bxe5 16.fxe5+ Kg8 The attack is over and now White must fight for the draw. Deep Fritz 14 now tried<br /><br />17.Bxd5 cxd5 18.Qf3 (Qf4 Qe7 19.Qe3 g6 20.Qh6 Qg7 21.Qe3 Qe7 22.Qh6 =) g6 19.Qg3 Kg7 20.Ne2 Rhf8 21.Nf4 Bf5 22.Rf2 Ne6 23.Nh5+ Kh8 24.Nf6 Rxf6 25.exf6 Qxf6 26.Re1 Qxd4 27.c3 Qb6 28.Qe5+ Kg8 29.Qxd5 = </div><!--302B212A2330261D2F2D2D263B1D28306C4202--><br />Hello Sloughter<br /><br />I have tried this line a number of times at internet blitz games, and I can tell from experience that in practise it ain't that easy to defend the Black side of the board! In particular 12.f4! (instead of your 12.Bf4) has cost me some loses. Any good recipe against that? <br /><br /> https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1430175897 ChessPub Forum/2 Knights https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1430175897 Tue, 28 Apr 2015 14:37:38 GMT <a href="https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1430175897/6#6">ReneDescartes wrote</a> on 04/28/15 at 13:00:37:<br /><div id="61565D567756405052414756403303">What is true is of it, at least, is that the first time inexperienced players encounter it they rarely play 6. Bf1!. So you can get quite a few points against weak players by memorizing the refutations of the other bishop moves. Yeats ago a friend of mine gave me a handmade pamphlet on this variation, which he had nade for his students. But today  a database search and a little research in Chessbase will show as much. </div><!--61565D567756405052414756403303--><br /><br /><br />My apologies. I had forgotten the 6.Bf1 move. Yes, that pretty much leaves out the Ulvestad variation. Please forgive my foolishness.