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Normal Topic Four Knights, 7.Bf4.. 10 Nxa8 .. 11 Bb5 (Read 4765 times)
badknight
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Re: Four Knights, 7.Bf4.. 10 Nxa8 .. 11 Bb5
Reply #9 - 11/30/03 at 12:15:33
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Hi, 11.Bd2 is interesting.

One idea for black could be to try play an exchange down hoping for compensation from a disrupted white pawnstructure (much as you wrote).

Play could perhaps go something like 11...Nxd2 12.Qxd5 Bxc3 13. Qxd8 Nxd8 14.bxc3 Nxf1 15.0-0-0 Ke7 16.Nc7 Nxh2 17.Nd5+ Kd6 (planning to go to c5).

Cheers / Anders





Without going into a bunch of "long analyses", Anders, I think in this line White may have a little something.  I also think if Black gets too aggressive ( e.g. the idea of the quick K trip to c5 to attack the weak pawns) White will defend this tactically and use his initiative to force further weaknesses.  I think Black's best defensive chances lie in his slowly advancing his k-side.  He may also be able to defend passively with pawn structure based on the chain g7-f6-e5 but I doubt it.

  Anyway none of it seems definitive enough to say this is or isn't 'it'.  Perhaps we can get alumbrado to use his connections and get one of our distinguished players to wade in?  GM Emms quotes a similar line briefly as noted above and GM Fedorowicz is the expert on these.  This last position is middlegame/endgame and any of our hosts would be more than qualified to weigh in.  Heck anybody would be welcome to wade in. 

Regards,
badknight
  
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Anders
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Re: Four Knights, 7.Bf4.. 10 Nxa8 .. 11 Bb5
Reply #8 - 11/29/03 at 13:35:51
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Hi, 11.Bd2 is interesting.

One idea for black could be to try play an exchange down hoping for compensation from a disrupted white pawnstructure (much as you wrote).

Play could perhaps go something like 11...Nxd2 12.Qxd5 Bxc3 13. Qxd8 Nxd8 14.bxc3 Nxf1 15.0-0-0 Ke7 16.Nc7 Nxh2 17.Nd5+ Kd6 (planning to go to c5).

Cheers / Anders



  
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badknight
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Re: Four Knights, 7.Bf4.. 10 Nxa8 .. 11 Bb5
Reply #7 - 11/23/03 at 13:56:02
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  Hi Anders,
I agree that the Qb8 idea is the best chance for white to cause trouble here I think black still equalizes by a timely attack on the white queenside/back rank but he has to be accurate.  Slight plus for white after 17Qb8 but can he maintain it?
  Since 13.Qxf4 is no improvement on 13. o-o for white in this line I looked briefly at one more idea for white that has  tactical and positional points.   
  What about 11.Bd2!? with the tactical point (other than the obvious one of saving the bishop!) being that 11...Nxd2 {with the idea of 12....d4! and winning} seems to be well met by (11.Bd2 Nxd2) 12.Qxd5! Qxd5 13.Nxd5 Nb3+ 14.Nxb4 and white appears to emerge with both material and positional plusses?  I think black should be looking at 11....Nd4 but after 12.Qd1 Bg4 13. Qc1 can black get away without an exchange on either d2 or c3 and the subsequent release in tension (as well as the bind that is his compensation{??!!} for the material?.  His obvious try here is 13...Nxd2 but it seems that after 14.Qxd2 Qxa8[what else?] 15.a3!? white will push around the black pieces and in some variations win the d pawn without suffering repercussions.

  Maybe black needs to double the c pawns, which seems to have been his saving grace in most of these lines while he has the opportunity but after 11...Nd4 he will lose at least 1 tempo and his outpost.  Well, I know how some of my chess time will be spent in the next day or two Smiley.  Let me know if you have any thoughts here.
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Badknight
  
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Anders
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Re: Four Knights, 7.Bf4.. 10 Nxa8 .. 11 Bb5
Reply #6 - 11/22/03 at 14:06:39
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Hi Badknight!

I think the position after 16.Rxf1 Kg8 17.Re1 seems about level.  

The best I could find for white is 17.Qb8 h6 18.Qxa7. The knight could then possibly use the route b6-d7-c5/e5.  (An improvement for black could be 17...h5 with the possibility Rh6 which also seems quite level).

Regardless, I agree that your suggestion 13...Bxc3 is an improvement of Hazais 13...Nd2.

Cheers / Anders

  
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Re: Four Knights, 7.Bf4.. 10 Nxa8 .. 11 Bb5
Reply #5 - 11/21/03 at 13:23:10
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In the annotations he gives the following variant after 11..exf4:
"
12. Bxc6 bxc6 13. 0-0 Nd2 14.Qxf4 Bxc3 15.bxc3 Nxf1 16.Rxf1 Be6 (Other alternatives are no better: 16..g6 17.Qd4!, 16..h6 17.Re1) 17.Rb1! penetrating on the b-line.
"

Cheers / Anders


In this line I think black can try 13...Bxc3!? 14.bxc3 Nd2 15.Qxf4 Nxf1 and if 16. R(or K)xf1 then Kg8 with the idea of h6 and black appears to extricate himself before white can save the Na8 and or exploit the coordination of the black pieces.  I have some sample lines here as well but will only burden you with them if you request.  thanks for replying....
Badknight
  
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Re: Four Knights, 7.Bf4.. 10 Nxa8 .. 11 Bb5
Reply #4 - 11/21/03 at 13:00:15
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Hi,

and thanks for the input.

The Drenchev - Manolov game is the game Hazai commented in the initial Open Sicilian batch on ChessPublishing. (See comment in the very start of this subject).

In the annotations he gives the following variant after 11..exf4:
"
12. Bxc6 bxc6 13. 0-0 Nd2 14.Qxf4 Bxc3 15.bxc3 Nxf1 16.Rxf1 Be6 (Other alternatives are no better: 16..g6 17.Qd4!, 16..h6 17.Re1) 17.Rb1! penetrating on the b-line.
"

Cheers / Anders
  
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badknight
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Re: Four Knights, 7.Bf4.. 10 Nxa8 .. 11 Bb5
Reply #3 - 11/20/03 at 17:47:58
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In Starting Out: the sicilian GM Emms mentions 7.Bf4!?...Ne4 8.Qf3...d5 9. o-o-o...Bc3 10. Nc7+...Kf8 11.bc3 which he says is "a very sharp position."  After 11...e5...12. Na8...Qa5(!)white seems to be suffering.
 Holding back o-o-o for white in favor of Bb5 seems to be a better shot for white but after (in the line that started this thread) 9.Nc7+...Kf8 10. Na8...e5 11.Bb5 does white really have anything after 11...ef4? 11....Nd4 may also be playable for black.
 I haven't done much work here and I'm certain somebody has a truck revved up to drive through some hole(s) but my first impression is this is another of those variations where the center clears quickly and after a few accurate moves by black it peters out to a drawish ending after some fireworks.  Good for speed or perhaps playing someone much higher rated where a draw will do??!!(Is that ever really the case in swisses, except maybe in the last round for prizes and I don't have too much experience with that problem Grin

Well, I found the stem game and the more time I spend with it the worse black's position looks after 11...Nd4, so I echo Anders sentiments and wonder why no one's playing it this way.  Here's the game for any who don't have it...


Drenchev,P (2371) - Manolov,I (2315) [B45]
BUL-ch Plovdiv (2), 05.1999

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Ndb5 Bb4 7.Bf4 Nxe4 8.Nc7+ Kf8 9.Qf3 d5 10.Nxa8 e5 11.Bb5 Nd4 12.Qd3 Nxc3 13.bxc3 Bf5 14.Qd2 Nxc2+ 15.Ke2 exf4 16.cxb4 f3+ 17.gxf3 Nxa1 18.Rxa1 Be6 19.Qf4 Qxa8 20.Qd6+ Kg8 21.Rc1 g6 22.Rc7 a5 23.Re7 Kg7 24.Qxe6 Rf8 25.Qe5+ Kh6 26.Re8 Rxe8 27.Qxe8 Qa7 28.Qe3+ Qxe3+ 29.fxe3 axb4 30.Be8 Kg7 31.Kd3 Kf8 32.Ba4 Ke7 33.Kd4 1-0
I particularly like 15. Ke2 solving the rook problem and keeping the momentum of the attack.  White seems to have everything his way.

It appears however that 11...ef4 may be a great improvement, a sample being 12.Rd1 
(12.o-o Bxc3 13.bc3 Be6 14.c4 Nd2 15.Qxf4 Nxf1 16.Nc7 and after the e6 B is defended white scoops up the night at f1 and may have a small advantage although it seems black is solving his problems  In this line black should prefer  13...Nd2 then 14.Qxf4 [Qd3?! Nxf1 15.Rxf1{15. Kxf1 Bg4 with the idea of QxN and black's a piece up for problematic compensation} ...Ne5 16. Qd4{or d2}...Nf3+ 17.gxf3 Bh3 black winds up an exchange up because white has to defend the mate.  Whether or not it's enough to win (I think so) is for a better player to decide.  If white tries 16. Qe2(!) then after 16....f6(!) or perhaps even 16....Ng6 black appears to win the Na8 and can gradually consolidate his material.]...Nxf1 15.Rxf1 f6 black is ok. It appears white has enough trouble extricating the Na8 that black can free his rook before white can generate enough attack.)
12...Bxc3+ 13.bxc3 black has Bf5 or even Bd7, will pick up the Na8 and with two minors for a rook and white's extra pawn doubled and isolated.  White will need to generate something quickly but it appears black can set up a structure with Nf6 and Be6-f5-or g4, push his h pawn for luft and in some cases rook entry and consolidate.

  Well, as GM Larsen said "long variation, wrong variation!" but food for thought.  I do think this may be a viable try for white if one is unhappy trying to make the 2B's and play against the IQP tell in the main line but I'm not convinced of white having anything after 12...exf4. 

  Maybe the 6Nxc6 line with the pawn sac Yudasin tried in his 1994 Candidates match with Kramnik deserves another look?
« Last Edit: 11/21/03 at 13:06:21 by badknight »  
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Anders
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Re: Four Knights, 7.Bf4.. 10 Nxa8 .. 11 Bb5
Reply #2 - 10/26/03 at 07:09:40
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Hi Mathias and thanks for your reply!

Please find below some further input regarding this.

You are correct in that Nunn on page 151 in "Understanding chess move by move" commenting on the position after 6.Ndb5 writes "Black has an alternative in 6...Bb4, but after 7.a3 Black is more or less forced to take on c3, which gives White the two more bishops at little cost".

Nunn have also commented on this opening in the Beating the sicilian (BTC) series. In BTC 3 (page 180) he writes "... In practice it is easy for White to allow the position slide towards a draw, and in some ways it is an annoying line to meet because instead of the sharp struggle typical of most Sicilian lines, White is trying to exploit a sligth positional edge ....".

It is clear that Nunn favours White over Black ("... who can only win if White takes exceptional risks...") but it is noteworthy that he started out in BTC1 looking for a tactical solution to 6...Bb4 but then had to resort to 7.a3 in BTC2 and BTC3.  

The opening (6... Bb4) is however good enough for players like Kramnik and Grischuk to play the Black side on occassion. Also a noted theoretician like Rogozenko uses it sometimes to mix with his usual Sveshnikov.

The point I was trying to make was that when one reads Hazais comments (in the initial ChessPublishing game batch) to the game Drenchev-Manolov the conclusion is that - White no more has to try to win an ending which has a high likelyhood of ending up drawn - but can "sharpen the game with good chances for success".

If that is so - why is no one then playing it? And why is it not covered elsewhere?  The idea in the game - to not expose the white king to an attack on the queenside by castling long -seems a good one.

10.Nxa8, 11.Bb5 is not mentioned in the latest (only?) opening monograph dealing with this opening - "meeting 1.e4" (2002, Raetsky). He only mentions 10.0-0-0 which leads to OK positions for Black.

Nore is it mentioned in ECO ABCDE II published this year who do give 10.Nxa8 in a fotenote but without continuing with 11.Bb5. Instead they continue with 11.0-0-0 leading to an equal position (see fotenote 28 on page 207).

Cheers / Anders

Ps.
In addition to the game mentioned above there are five additional (later) entries in the Open Sicilian section with 6... Bb4.  They do however all deal with 7.a3 without mentioning/discussing this option.  A question for "the Fed" is then why that is so?

  
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Matthias Willems
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Re: Four Knights, 7.Bf4.. 10 Nxa8 .. 11 Bb5
Reply #1 - 07/01/03 at 03:01:30
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I think this is for the following reason:
With 7. a3 white obtains the pair of bishops plus an isolated black pawn in the centre;
White can play for a win, whereas black has to fight for the draw (so far as I remember this is the explanation by John Nunn in his book "Understanding chess move by move")
  
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Anders
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Four Knights, 7.Bf4.. 10 Nxa8 .. 11 Bb5
01/10/03 at 13:57:11
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Hi,

one of the games commented by Hazai in the initial Sicilian batch was Drenchev-Manolov, Plovdiv 1999.

In the game annotations Hazai views White´s chanses very optimistically.

But no one seems to play it! Kasparov for instance has been playing the "main-line" 6.Ndb5 Bb4 7. a3 against Grischuk.  Why does no one play 7.Bf4, 10.Nxa8, 11.Bb5 if it is so good? I think there may be a black resource hidden but I can not find it.

Any suggestions are appreciated.  Grin

Cheers / Anders

Ps.
The initial moves are 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e6 6.Ndb5 Bb4 7.Bf4 Nxe4 8.Qf3 d5 9.Nc7+ Kf8 10.Nxa8 e5 11.Bb5.
Ds.
  
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