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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Bg5+f4 in the Pirc - black is suffering badly? (Read 9043 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: Bg5+f4 in the Pirc - black is suffering badly?
Reply #16 - 04/01/04 at 16:52:17
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Well of course 4.Be3 is a good move, but 4.Bg5 poses it's share fair of problems as well.  I don't know which is stronger but after 4.Bg5 h6 5.Be3 Ng4 White is supposed to play 6.Bc1 I believe.  White will follow with f3 and Black will lose time also.  I have to admit to not knowing the latest assessment of this position, however.
  
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Re: Bg5+f4 in the Pirc - black is suffering badly?
Reply #15 - 04/01/04 at 16:31:52
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If after 4.Bg5 h6 5.Be3 is best, why not 4.Be3 immediately? It is not clear at all, that h6 is a weakness.
Comparing 4.Be3 Ng4 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4 with 4.Bg5 h6 5.Be3 Ng4 I would choose the first to play as White.
  

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Glenn Snow
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Re: Bg5+f4 in the Pirc - black is suffering badly?
Reply #14 - 03/28/04 at 20:05:39
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In the Polgar-Smirin game Black has a couple of other ideas after 11.h5 c5 12.Nge2 a6 (12...Qa5!? with the idea of ...b5 is the first idea) 13.dxc5 Nxc5 14.Nd4, and now 14...Bd7 15.Bc4 Rc8 is another idea.  Another try for White is 10.fxe3 (instead of 10.Qxe3) then 10...g4 11.h5 Nb6 to stop Bc4 is given by Yrjölä and Tella.

I'm not sold on 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 h6 for Black, after 5.Be3 White still seems to have good chances for an advantage. 

After studying all of this I have come to the definitive conclusion of "needs more tests".  There is still much to be discovered here.  (By the way one of the important Pirc books that I don't have is "Pirc Alert".  Does that book have anything to add to this discussion?
  
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Re: Bg5+f4 in the Pirc - black is suffering badly?
Reply #13 - 03/28/04 at 14:17:23
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In his notes to Leko-Svidler 1996, Stohl gives 6. Bf4 Nbd7 7. O-O-O g5 8. Be3 Ng4 9. h4 Nxe3 10. Qxe3 g4 11. h5! (preventing Black from protecting this pawn with...h5) 11...c5 12. Nge2 a6 13. dxc5 Nxc5 14. Nd4 Qa5 15. Bc4 Bd7 16. Nd5 leading to a clear advantage for White in Polgar, J.- Smirin PCA 1993.I think that White should initiaill attack the g-pawn with his h-pawn, not his f-pawn so as to block the advance of Black's h-pawn.

Stohl seems to think that 4. Bg5 h6 is a better move order because it makes 5. Bf4 g5 look a little ridiculous as Black has effectively saved a tempo by not playing Bg7 and may instead be able to deploy his Bishop on h6. So 5. Bh4 is recommended when the question becomes after 5...g5 6. Bg3 Bg7 8. Qd2 Nh5 9. O-O-O Nxg3 10. hxg3 whether White's initiative compensates for his doubled pawns. Also, it is important to ask whether the doubled pawns are actually a weakness in the middlegame. For example, if White wishes to play f4, he could first play g4, then g3, and then f4 preventing an advance to g4.
  
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Re: Bg5+f4 in the Pirc - black is suffering badly?
Reply #12 - 03/28/04 at 13:47:55
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I agree that 6.Bh6 (1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6) should leave White with the better chances, but Black's position appears playable (after reviewing Gallagher's book).

After 5...h6 6.Bf4 g5 7.Be3 Ng4 8.O-O-O Nd7 9.h4 Nxe3 10.Qxe3 g4 11.f4, and now the authors of "An explosive chess opening repertoire" suggest  that 11...c5!? gives good play.
  
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Re: Bg5+f4 in the Pirc - black is suffering badly?
Reply #11 - 03/28/04 at 08:43:24
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While White can keep things within the Bg5 system by playing 5. Qd2 c6 6. f4, 6. Bh6! transposes to a favorable variation of the 150 Attack which arises after 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Be3 Bg7? (4...c6 is best) 5. Qd2 c6 6. Bh6 and then you can just follow the line from NCO from here. Instead, 5. Qd2 h6 6. Bf4 g5 7. Be3 Ng4 8. O-O-O also looks good for White (IMHO). I think the Bf4 idea is very strong and so I think if Black cannot equalize in the 4. Bg5 Bg7 5. Qd2 h6 line, he should think about 4...h6 instead.
  
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Re: Bg5+f4 in the Pirc - black is suffering badly?
Reply #10 - 03/27/04 at 23:27:31
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I don't understand how this is supposed to be so terrifying for Black.  Perhaps I just don't know about some White novelties, but the talk of refutation seems pretty exaggerated.

After 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.f4, I still like Alumbrado's suggestion of 5...h6 6.Bh4 (I think someone here once suggested 6.Bxf6 Bxf6 7.e5, but after simply 7...Bg7 I think White will be missing that Bishop soon.)  6...c5! This variation is still fairly unclear, but I think Black holds is own.

So perhaps 5.Qd2 is better.  If then 5...c6 6.f4 O-O 7.Bd3 b5 8.Nf3 Bg4 9.O-O! Qb6 10.Ne2, here 10...c5 is the known move but what about the odd looking 10...d5!?

Also I believe 5.Qd2 h6 with a quick ...g5 in most lines is OK for Black.
  
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Re: Bg5+f4 in the Pirc - black is suffering badly?
Reply #9 - 02/27/03 at 08:32:41
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I had a very interesting Bg5 game yesterday against local Pirc-expert Bonno Pel. Probably because he already lost an interesting game against Ulibin (see the notes in one of the Bg5 games) he played a Modern move order: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 6.f4 b4 7.Nd1 Qb6 8.Nf3 Bg4?! (8..Nf6, transposing in a Pirc seems best) 9.e5!N  8) (Better than the coward-move 9.c3) ...f6 10.Bh4! (The point. Black can hardly accept the pawnsacrifice, but the blackplayer is very familiar with these kind of structures) ...Nd7! 11.e:d6 (11.Ne3!?) e:d6 12.Ne3 B:f3 13.g:f3 d5 14.0-0-0 and white was a little better (I think). Eventually I lost after making some stupid moves in a winning position.
  
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Re: Bg5+f4 in the Pirc - black is suffering badly?
Reply #8 - 02/19/03 at 05:00:29
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It is a nice sharp struggle after 5.f4 - Pirc players should rejoice when W plays like this!  Personally, I think the best line is 4...Bg7 5.f4 h6 6.Bh4 c5! (it just must be logical to try to prise open the dark squares once W has committed his bishop like this) 7.e5 Nh5 8.dc5: Nf4: 9.ed6: g5 when it is anyone's guess what is happening but Black has his fair share of the play it seems to me.  Check out Alburt and Chernin's "Pirc Alert" for more on this position, and this line in general.
  

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Re: Bg5+f4 in the Pirc - black is suffering badly?
Reply #7 - 01/24/03 at 02:57:23
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I come back to Bg5 which is definitly an annoying line against the Pirc. For the information the move h6 is interesting, here is the game I played against IM Yochahan Afek in September 2002 at normal time control (2 hours...):
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Bg5 h6 5. Be3 Bg7 6. f3 c6 7. Qd2 b5 8. O-O-O
Qa5 9. Kb1 Nbd7 10. Bd3 a6 11. h4 c5 12. e5 dxe5 13. dxc5 b4 14. Ne4 Bb7 15.
Nxf6+ Nxf6 16. a3 Nd5 17. Be4 Rd8 18. axb4 Nc3+ $3 19. bxc3 Rxd2 20. Rxd2 Qb5
21. Bxb7 Qxb7 22. Ne2 O-O 23. Nc1 e4 24. Bd4 e5 25. Bf2 exf3 26. gxf3 Qxf3 27.
Rhd1 Qxc3 28. Na2 Qc4 29. Rd6 a5 30. bxa5 Qb5+ 31. Ka1 Qxa5 32. Be1 Qxc5 33.
Bb4 Qxc2 0-1
  
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Lauri Torni
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Re: Bg5+f4 in the Pirc - black is suffering badly?
Reply #6 - 01/24/03 at 01:55:14
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Hi!

Of course, if you are not a King's indian player or
die hard modern practitioner 3.c4 if then a problem.

Also, agains 4.Be3 lines it would be nice to avoid early
-Bg7, although these modern lines (without -Nf6) may be quite ok. for black.

Antti
  

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Re: Bg5+f4 in the Pirc - black is suffering badly?
Reply #5 - 01/20/03 at 07:33:06
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Why not just enter the pirc via a modern move order (e.g. d6, g6, Bg7), after which the 4.Bg5 variation is known to be entirely harmless to black?  8)
  
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Lauri Torni
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Re: Bg5+f4 in the Pirc - black is suffering badly?
Reply #4 - 01/14/03 at 09:06:34
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Hi Tom!

Do you really mean the combination of -h6 and -c6?
To me this (at least to first look) looks rather suspectable. I have been thinking the following line
to prevent Bd3+0-0
(There are a few games here):

4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 (5.f4?! Qb6) Bg7 6.f4 0-0 (6.-b5 7.Bd3)
7.Nf3 (7.Bd3? Qb6) Bg4 8.Be2 (8.Bd3 Bxf3 and 9.-Qb6)

but I am not sure if this is very good for black after
subsequent h2-h3.

Quote:
Hi Antti,

I agree with your posting and beleive that the Bg5 lines are the most difficult to meet out of the whole range of whites opening possibilites.

Even after 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.f4 h6 6.Bxf6 (supossedly not the serious attacking line!?) Bxf6 7.e5! I have found equalisation can be problematic, while whites game is quite simple to play.

It may be that after 6.Bh4 c6 is the best practical try and the one that I've started to use, after getting the worst of it in a few games with 6.... c5 - which seems to open the positon too quickly and in whites favour. Instead of playing into a Sicilian type position black can try the 'queenside rumble' as in whites Be3 - Qd2 type lines, or even playing for d5 and playing a form of Gurgenidze type game. Just my thoughts...

Cheers, Tom



  

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Lauri Torni
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Re: Bg5+f4 in the Pirc - black is suffering badly?
Reply #3 - 01/14/03 at 09:00:28
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Thanks Andrew!

Your tip helped me to get some confidence. But I have to say, overall black is really walking a tightrope here.

Antti



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   Hi-take a look at the game Werle-Nijboer in the January Update 2003 , where one of the lines you mention is featured ( 8...Bg4 9 0-0 etc)

   I am not wholly pessimistic about Black's chances there although he must play with extreme accuracy. and in the end even GM Nijboer couldn't manage it.  However,as hinted,Black can improve and the ideas are all there.

    One further reason for subscribing to ChessPublishing !

     Bset Wishes to all,  Andrew

  

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Tom Connelly
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Re: Bg5+f4 in the Pirc - black is suffering badly?
Reply #2 - 01/13/03 at 15:12:52
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Hi Antti,

I agree with your posting and beleive that the Bg5 lines are the most difficult to meet out of the whole range of whites opening possibilites.

Even after 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.f4 h6 6.Bxf6 (supossedly not the serious attacking line!?) Bxf6 7.e5! I have found equalisation can be problematic, while whites game is quite simple to play.

It may be that after 6.Bh4 c6 is the best practical try and the one that I've started to use, after getting the worst of it in a few games with 6.... c5 - which seems to open the positon too quickly and in whites favour. Instead of playing into a Sicilian type position black can try the 'queenside rumble' as in whites Be3 - Qd2 type lines, or even playing for d5 and playing a form of Gurgenidze type game. Just my thoughts...

Cheers, Tom


  
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