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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) King's Gambit 2...Nc6 & 3...f5!? (Read 12553 times)
MNb
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Re: King's Gambit 2...Nc6 & 3...f5!?
Reply #11 - 11/18/04 at 20:21:54
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1.e4 e5 2.f4 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.Nf3 d6 and Black has an improved version of the Classical Defense - 5.d3 Bg4! or 5.Nc3 Bg4! Zukertort-Schallopp, Frankfurt 1887.
So do not follow Markovich's recommendation too soon.
  

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Markovich
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Re: King's Gambit 2...Nc6 & 3...f5!?
Reply #10 - 11/18/04 at 13:06:00
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1. e4 e5  2. f4 Nc6 and now, at least for Bishop's Gambit players, I would advocate 3. Bc4 (3...exf4  4. d4, which can also arise from 2...fxe4  3. Bc4 Nc6  4. d4,  offers White sufficient compensation).
  

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pionjaponais
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Re: King's Gambit 2...Nc6 & 3...f5!?
Reply #9 - 11/18/04 at 09:35:33
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I am a beginner at chess but why Be2 is bad ? (I mean e4 e5 f4 Nc6 Nf3 f5 exf5 e4 Ne5 Nc6 Be2). 
It seems to attack directly the disadvantage of f5 (which opens the king diagonal).

Kiyoshi
  
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TalJechin
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Re: King's Gambit 2...Nc6 & 3...f5!?
Reply #8 - 08/12/04 at 04:31:08
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Tricky idea you ran into! And thanks for sharing it, which may save me a point should I ever run into this!

White should probably prefer 7.Be2 Nxe2 8.Qxe2 d6 9.Ng4 Nxg4 (9...Bxf5 10.Qb5+) 10.Qxg4 += (does anyone know if Burgess mentions this?)

  
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CraigEvans
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Re: King's Gambit 2...Nc6 & 3...f5!?
Reply #7 - 08/10/04 at 15:42:42
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Well, this was a new one on me.

A friend tried this variation against me in a friendly correspondence game. I didn't last long...

[Date "2004.07.18"]
[White "Evans, C."]
[Black "Jones, I."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C30"]

1.e4 e5 2.f4 Nc6 3.Nf3 f5 4.exf5 e4 5.Ne5 Nf6 6.Nc3 [I was sure this was meant to be good...] Nd4!? [Huh... erm... well, wasn't expecting that one. Apparently this was suggested in Burgess's 101 Chess Opening Surprises, and if the other 100 are anything like this, the book would live up to it's name] 7.Bc4 [I think this is the losing move... 7.Nxe4 looked more dodgy at the start to me, but given the continuation I suppose I shouldn't have given black the chance to get in ...d5] d5 8.Nxd5 [In for a penny, in for a pound, as they say...] 9.Qh5+ g6 10.fxg6 Nxc2+ 11.Kf2 Nf6 12.g7+ Nxh5 13.gxh8Q Nf6 14.g4? [What I was thinking here, I don't know... but white's position already seems pretty desperate] Bxg4 [I, for some reason, ignored the bishop capture and only looked at the knight capture, which should let white survive] 15.Rb1 Bh5 16.Rg1 Qe7 and I resigned in view of my position being farsical and indefensible.

Now I know it's a bit early to be talking of the refutation of 6.Nc3, but what improvements are there?? 6...Nd4 looks a lot stronger than I originally thought.

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Craig  Grin
  

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CraigEvans
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Re: King's Gambit 2...Nc6 & 3...f5!?
Reply #6 - 07/20/04 at 12:12:53
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After 4.exf5 e4, is there possibly anything in 5.Ng5!?

Regards, 
Craig  Grin
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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Re: King's Gambit 2...Nc6 & 3...f5!?
Reply #5 - 07/17/04 at 21:22:17
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I think Thomas Johansson gives very good coverage for White in his "The King's Gambit For The Creative Aggressor" book".  If White knows what he's doing he's the one who ends up having the fun.
  
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Re: King's Gambit 2...Nc6 & 3...f5!?
Reply #4 - 03/11/03 at 05:02:49
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Hallo Paul and slangevar!
There have been some contributions to your discussion in german sources a few years ago. In his 1996 german magazine "Kaissiber" Stefan Buecker analyses the Miles-Variation (line b in Paul´s reply) and line c as following:

line b: Instead of 8. d4 he gives

8. Bc4 Qxe5 9, Bxg8 g6 [ 9. - Rxg8 ? 10. Qxh7 Qd5 11. Nc3 Qf7 12. Ne4 +-] 10. Qh3 ! Rxg8 11. Qxh7 Rh8 12. Qxg6 d5 13. Rf1 Rxh2 14. Nc3 c6 15. d4 [ 15. Ne2 !? ]exd3 + 16. Kd1 dxc2 + 17. Kxc2 Bd7 18. Bd2 Be8 19. Qg4 Bh5 20. Qg5 + Be7 [ 20. - Qe7 21. Qg3 Qh7 22. Bf4 ! +- ] 21. Qg8 Be8  22. f6 ! Bf6 23. Rae1 with a clear advantage for white

line c: Buecker´s improvement for white is:
6. Nc3 Bd6 7. d4 Bb4 8. Be2 Nd5 9. Bc4 ! Qh4 [ 9. - Nxc3 ? 10. Qh5 + Ke7 11. Qf7 + Kd6 12. bxc3 Bxc3 + 13. Kd1 Qf8 14. Ba3 + Nb4 15. Qd5 + Ke7 16. Qxe4 + - ]10. g3 Nxc3 11. bxc3 Bxc3 + 12. Bd2 Bxd2 + 13. Qxd2 Qf6 14. Bf7 + Kf8 15. Bd5 Qxf5 16. 00 d6 17. g4 Qf6 18. Nxc6 bxc6 19. Bxc6 Rb8 20. f5 +=

In his 1998 bilingual (english/german) book " The king´s gambit for the creative aggressor " Thomas Johansson adds to this analysis:

18. Bxe4 or 18. Rab1 may be even better and:

14. Qe3 ! seems even stronger, e.g. Qxf5 15. Bd5 ! Nxe5 16. fxe5 Rf8 17. Bxe4

He also gives in Paul´s line a:
4. exf5 exf4 5. d4 d5 6. Bd3 Qe7 [ 6. - Bd6 7. 00 Qf6 8. Nc3 Nge7 9. Ne2 += ] 7. Kf2 Nf6 8. Nc3 Ng4 9. Kf1 +=
as possible improvement for white.

I hope this is a little help for you. At least the positions in line a aren´t that boring anymore.
  
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Re: King's Gambit 2...Nc6 & 3...f5!?
Reply #3 - 03/03/03 at 03:27:00
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I think the simplest solution against this variation is to play 3.Nc3, white having a good variation of the Vienna or a good form of the King's gambit declined if black follow by Bc5, Nc6 being premature in this line.
  
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Re: King's Gambit 2...Nc6 & 3...f5!?
Reply #2 - 02/17/03 at 01:30:08
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Hello Paul and thanks for your analysis. The Wahls article can be found in New In Chess 38:

1.e4 e5 2.f4 Nc6 3.Nf3 f5 4.ef5 e4 

(4...ef4 "clearly lacks ambition. It will probably lead to a slight advantage for White" - Wahls. His analysis runs 5.d4 d5 6.Bf4 Bf5 7.Bd3! Bd3 8.Qd3 Bd6 9.Bd6 Qd6 10.0-0 0-0-0 11.Ng5! Nh6 12.c3 Rde8 13. Nd2 Qe7 14 Ndf3 Qe2 15. Qb1)

5.Ne5 Nf6

(after 5...Ne5 "Black's position turns out to be amazingly viable" but his main line follows Gallagher-Wohl. He does not mention your 13. Re1 which may well be an improvement.)

6.d3

(Wahl gives the ! symbol to 6.Nc3 and 6.Bc4 but his very detailed anaysis does not seem to lead to advantage for White in either case though there are many unclear lines.)

6...Qe7 7.d4 d6 8.Nc6 bc6 9.g4

(He does not mention 9.c4. Instead 9.Be2 is given as leading to equality.)

9...h5 10 g5 Nd5 =+ 11c4 Nb4/Nb6.



BTW his main line runs 6.Nc3 Bd6 7.d4 Bb4 ("shows mental flexibility") 8.Be2 Nd5! 9.Bh5 Kf8 10.Nf7 Qf6 


("unclear. For example: 11.Nh8 Nc3 12.bc3 Bc3 13.Bd2 Ba1 14.Qa1 Qh4 15.g3 Qh5 16.d5 e3 17.Bc3 Qf3 18.Rf1 Qd5 19.Bg7 Kg8 20.Bc3 Qf5 when Black is given as clearly better.)

I have also found this line to be annoying, especially in fast games when White seems to be on the receiving end of the gambit rather than offering it.
  
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Re: King's Gambit 2...Nc6 & 3...f5!?
Reply #1 - 02/16/03 at 17:39:18
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Yes this line is a bit annoying! I haven't seen GM Wahls' article on it, but here is some of my own analysis (with Fritz 6). My personal opinion is that after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Nc6 3.Nf3 f5 4.exf5,
(a) 4...exf4 is boring,
(b) 4...e4 5.Ne5 Nxe5 gives White a good game, and
(c) 4...e4 5.Ne5 Nf6 leads to tricky positions.

1.e4 e5 2.f4 Nc6 3.Nf3 f5 4.exf5 e4

(4...exf4 groan! 5.d4 d5 How can White spice it up after this? The game feels more like a Petroff! The best I can come up with is either 6.Bxf4 Bxf5 7.Bb5 Bd6 8.Ne5 Nge7 9.Qh5+!? g6 10.Qh6, or 6.Bd3 Bd6 7.Nc3 Nge7 [7...Nf6?! 8.Qe2+ could be awkward] 8.f6!?, but neither look convincing to me. White should probably play more solidly and accept dull equality.)

5.Ne5 Nf6!

(5...Nxe5 6.fxe5 Qe7 7.Qh5+ Kd8 8.d4 exd3 9.Bxd3 Qxe5+ 10.Kd1 Nf6 11.Qf3 Bc5 12.Nc3 d6 13.Re1! [13.Bf4 Qd4 was fine for Black in Gallagher-Wohl, Kuala Lumpa 1992] 13...Qd4 [13...Qxh2 14.Ne4 looks strong] 14.Be3 Qb4 15.Bxc5 Qxc5 [15...Qxb2? 16.Bd4! Qxa1+ 17.Kd2 Qb2 18.Qg3 wins] 16.Kd2 intending Rad1 & Kc1, with a good game for White.)

6.d3 Qe7 7.d4 d6 8.Nxc6 bxc6 9.c4

(9.g4!? looks risky, e.g. 9...h5 [or 9...Nd5 10.h4!? h5 11.c4 Nb6 12.Nc3 hxg4 13.Qxg4 with a wild game] 10.g5 Nd5 11.c4 Nb6, unclear! It looks a bit like a King's Gambit with colours reversed!)

9...Bxf5 10.Nc3, when it's difficult to assess the position.

Does Wahls' article deal with any of these lines?
  
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slangevar
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King's Gambit 2...Nc6 & 3...f5!?
02/16/03 at 02:07:23
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oes anyone have thoughts on the best way forward for White after. !.e4 e5 2.f4 Nc6 3.Nf3 f5!?
GM Wahls wrote an article in NIC a few years ago arguing that the line is good for Black...it's even titled
"King's Gambit Finally Refuted"  Cry
  
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