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Normal Topic C02: Question re. Watson's advance French line (Read 6439 times)
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Re: Question re. Watson's advance French line
Reply #8 - 11/28/04 at 14:56:18
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What's the right square for black queen (on the kingside Qh5 or on the 7th rank Qe7-Qc7) ? that's the question, but I prefer Qc7 for the current time. Maybe because I am not an "attacking" player but because White can play  8.dxe5 (instead of 8.Nxe5) too thus Qc7 is a square for all lines.


Qc7 looks convincing, as Black's queen seems to need to stay on the queenside.  After White moves his QB, then Qb6 can be difficult to counter.  Mind you, what I particularly like about Black's positions after Bd7 is its flexibility.  I don't think Black needs to be dogmatic about the Black queen, and can leave that decision in order to respond to White's play.  Qc7 appears to be the most principled move, if only because it exerts pressure on White's center without being too far removed from kingside defense if needed...
  

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Re: Question re. Watson's advance French line
Reply #7 - 11/28/04 at 14:48:45
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I admit I favour 7...cxd4 8.cxd4 (8.exf6 leads to a Tarrasch variation with Bd7) Nh6! Jackle-Sakaev,Dortmund 1992 (Watson) where knight goes to f7 for pressure on e5 pawn (common idea  in other lines with a3 when Black play g6-Bg7)


I've been working my way through Watson's 3rd edition, too (though I'm a bit behind the rest of you!).  I would welcome an ongoing exchange on some of Watson's sidelines.  The line mentioned above is one I've been finding quite interesting as well.

1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 e5 c5 4 c3 Nc6 5 Nf3 Bd7 6 a3 f6 7 Bd3 cxd4 8 cxd4 Nh6

It seems as though Black is surprisingly solid after Bxh6--queen jumps out to b6 and king escapes to the queenside.  Similarly, White's center is a wreck after Nf7 and fxe5.  What is White's best path against 8 ... Nh6?

I've also wondered about the immediate 7 ... Nh6.  What are the weaknesses of playing 7 ... cxd4 first?  Is there any advantage to be derived from maintaining the central tension, or does Black wind up with more problems?  A quick database check seems to suggest that Black scores very well with 7 ... Nh6, but it does seems as though play is generally not at the GM level.
  

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Re: Question re. Watson's advance French line
Reply #6 - 11/23/04 at 15:44:11
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Exchange: i am ready for... Smiley
Just about Qe7!? (old game for J.Watson is Perrin-Knott,NewYork 1857) to stay into the topic: if White wants to get an advantage, I believe he must play the gambit 6.Be2!? (I have "chesskids and Rhode" as reference and some analysis might be found on www.chesskids.com ..don't know ?!)
The gambit has the same background idea as  given in the game Petrow-Szymansky,Varsovie 1847 (Kuligowski Encyclopaedia of Chess Games, or Watson & ECO): 4.c4 Bb4 5.Nc3 Ne7 6.Nf3 Bg4 7. Be2 dxc4 8.Bxf3? which gives the c4-pawn and get it back some moves later. Black can't afford to keep the material advantage. Comparing Qe7 vs Ne7 one can say that it's has the same (Nf6/Ng4/Nxe3 vs Ne7/Nf5/Nxe3) value but in some moves queen will have to leave e-file.
Example of position to reach: 5...Qe7!? 6.Be2 dxc4 7.Nf3 Nf6 8.oo and now A) 8...oo 9.Bxc4 small advantage to White (?) B) 8...Nbd7? 9.Re1 oo 10.Bxc4 Qd6 11.Qd3 big advantage to White (?) C) 8...Be6 9.d5! Bg4 10.Bxc4 improve on A) D) 8...Bxc3 9.bxc3 oo 10.Bxc4 or 9...Be6 10.Re1 oo 11.Bxc4  small advantage to White
  

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Re: Question re. Watson's advance French line
Reply #5 - 11/20/04 at 21:03:00
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It is far off topic, but I have always wondered what players of the French Exchange do after 3.exd5 exd5 4.c4 Nc6!? as 5.cxd5 Qxd5 transposes to the Danish Gambit Declined.
  

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Re: Question re. Watson's advance French line
Reply #4 - 11/20/04 at 06:33:48
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Thanks for replying Dom, you're really the Man in the french!

Quote:
I prefer Qc7 for the current time. Maybe because I am not an "attacking" player but because White can play  8.dxe5 (instead of 8.Nxe5) too thus Qc7 is a square for all lines.


I also reached this conclusion, Qc7 and f6 and 0-0-0, sometimes h6 and g5 too or c5-c4 and Bc5, is a set up I also like, as it is so full of dynamic energy!

Perhaps it could be useful to exchange opinions on the value of different sidelines given by Watson?

Some I really like, for example the inclusion of 3...Be7 (former sideline now a main line!) against the Tarrasch especially 4.e5 Nh6!? which is discussed in another thread.

Another idea I first liked and then got suspicious off, is 3.exd5 exd5 4.c4 Bb4+ 5.Nc3 Qe7+?!/!?
Here, JW only gives 6.Be3 and 6.Qe2?! along with a game from the 1850s!
But surely 6.Be2 is best, as played several times by latvian GM Miezis. 6...Bg4 7.Kf1!? or 7.cxd5 have both been played by him, (but not with much luck admittedly). But despite Tyomkin's low opinion of 7.Kf1 I'm not so sure I'd like to play the "equal" position after 7...dxc4 8.Qa4+ c6 9.Nd5(!) b5 10.Nxe7 bxa5.
  
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Re: Question re. Watson's advance French line
Reply #3 - 11/20/04 at 05:35:30
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Hello Panda,
I have bought Watson'book 3nd Ed two weeks ago and I am reading it as you do (current page 42).
I have quoted some variations in the Advance chapters and maybe I'll post here some of my comments next month.

About the line with 9...Qh4!? I have nothing recorded and I need more time to fix my own point of view.

My recorded information is (apart from Waston 9...g6 and your suggestion 9...Qe7!?) is 9...Ne7 10.oo Qc7 unclear ( Informant #7).

What's the right square for black queen (on the kingside Qh5 or on the 7th rank Qe7-Qc7) ? that's the question, but I prefer Qc7 for the current time. Maybe because I am not an "attacking" player but because White can play  8.dxe5 (instead of 8.Nxe5) too thus Qc7 is a square for all lines.

I admit I favour 7...cxd4 8.cxd4 (8.exf6 leads to a Tarrasch variation with Bd7) Nh6! Jackle-Sakaev,Dortmund 1992 (Watson) where knight goes to f7 for pressure on e5 pawn (common idea  in other lines with a3 when Black play g6-Bg7)

  

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Re: Question re. Watson's advance French line
Reply #2 - 11/18/04 at 07:05:24
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I'm going thru Watson's latest Play the French book, and like Dom, I like many of the off-beat ideas suggested, but it seems important to check up on him in some lines.  Undecided

On page 27, Watson writes:

Quote:
"I suggested 9...Qh4!? in the previous edition but it remains untried. The queen move prevents Qh5+ and prepares ...Nh6 and ...Bc6, or ...c4 with Bc5. For example 10.Nd2 Ne7 11.Nf3 Qh5 12.Be2!? Qf7! 13.Ng5 Qg8 planning ...h6, ...0-0-0 and Be8-g6."


However, in my base there are 3 games with 9...Qh4 and white wins them all! To me it seems like ...Qh4 is dubious, because after Nf3 Qh5 the queen is in the way for Be8-h5. The games below see black playing it like Watson suggests, but despite a promising start the queen ends up on the retreat and white takes over the show on the kingside.

In Watson's variation above, white spends a lot of time chasing the queen to g8, where it's no longer in the way of Be8-g6/h5, (so 12.Be2!? should probably be 12.Be2?!).

Does any of the french experts here have any suggestions of how black should get counter play or do you agrre that  9...Qh4 is inferior?


Skytte,R (2404) - Johnson,B (2256) [C02]
Politiken Cup København (10), 24.07.2003

1.d4 e6 2.e4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.a3 f6 7.Bd3 fxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.dxe5 Qh4

10.0-0

[ 10.b4 c4 11.Bc2 Be7 12.Nd2 Nh6 13.Nf3 Qh5 14.0-0 0-0-0 15.Qd4 Rhf8 16.Bd1 Qf5 17.Qxa7 Ng4 18.Nd4 Qg6 19.Bxg4 Qxg4 20.b5 Bh4 21.Qa8+ Kc7 mit Matt in 4 Zuegen.. 1-0 Kabisch,T-Steinwachs,C/Leinfelden 2000/EXT 2003 (21)]

10...Nh6

[ 10...c4 11.Bc2 Bc5 12.Nd2 Ne7 13.Nf3 Qh5 14.h3 0-0 15.Kh2 Nc6 16.g4 Qe8 17.Kg2 Rxf3 18.Qxf3 ( 18.Kxf3 Nxe5+ 19.Kg3 Ng6 20.Be3 Be7 21.Bd4 Qf7 22.Bxg6 Qxg6) 18...Nxe5 19.Qg3 Ng6 20.Be3 Be7 21.Bd4 Qf7 22.Bxg6 Qxg6 23.Rae1 Rf8 24.Qc7 Qe8 25.Re2 Bc8 26.Bxa7 Rf7 27.Bd4 Bxa3 28.Qb8 Bf8 29.Ra1 Qc6 30.Ra8 Rc7 31.Rxe6 Qxe6 32.Qxc7 Qe4+ 33.Kh2 1-0 Haba,P-Steinwachs,C/Leinfelden 2000/EXT 2003 (33)]

11.Nd2 Be7 12.f4 c4 13.Nf3 Bc5+ 14.Kh1 Qh5 15.Bc2 Nf5 16.Qe1 0-0 17.h3 Qe8 18.g4 Ne7 19.Qh4 h6 20.Qg3 Rd8 21.Bd2 b6 22.Rae1 Bc6 23.Nd4 Bd7 24.Re2 a5 25.Ref2 b5 26.Be3 Nc6 27.g5 h5 28.g6 Ne7 29.Qg5 Bxd4 30.Bxd4 Nf5 31.Rg1 Rc8 32.Qxh5 Nh6 33.Be3 Qe7 34.f5 exf5 35.Bxh6 gxh6 36.g7 Rfe8 37.Rxf5 Qe6 38.Rg6 Qe7 39.Rf8+ Rxf8 40.gxf8Q+ Kxf8 41.Qxh6+ 1-0


By the way, I found one interesting similar idea, that is, 9...Qe7!? in the following game. Black is clearly the stronger player in rating so I don't know how much this is worth, but if the queen is ending up on f7 anyway, why not go Qe7-f7 instead of Qh4-h5-f7  ???

Laurent,B (2190) - Kern,G (2395) [C02]
BEL-chT9798 Antwerp (7), 1998

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.a3 f6 7.Bd3 fxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.dxe5 Qe7 10.0-0 Nh6 11.b4 Qf7 12.Bg5 Be7 13.Bxe7 Qxe7 14.Qh5+ Qf7 15.Qg5 0-0 16.Nd2 Rac8 17.c4 Qf4 18.Qxf4 Rxf4 19.Rfd1 Ba4 20.Rdc1 Rd4 21.Rc3 b5 22.cxb5 c4 23.Rac1 Rd8 24.Bc2 Rxd2 25.Bxa4 Rf8 26.b6 axb6 27.Bd7 Kf7 28.Rf3+ Nf5 29.g4 Ke7 30.gxf5 Kxd7 31.fxe6+ Ke7 32.Rxf8 Kxf8 33.f4 g6 0-1

  
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dom
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Re: Question re. Watson's advance French line
Reply #1 - 05/02/03 at 09:36:37
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Watson's excellent books are full of off-theory variations and I like that very much.
You can find original ways too, against well-prepared (and Watson's books readers).
By example:
7.exf6!? Nxf6 (7...gxf6?! 8.Nh4!) 8.oo and now must choose between Qb6 (transposition to Topalov's variation) and Bd6.
On 8..Bd6 many moves can be tried (Re1,Nbd2,Be3 and the one tempo-less Bd3).
Now if you follow "main line" with 7.oo! you have:
- 7...Qb6  (Topalov variation ; Note: you might think it's an error because Qb6 was an error in the classical game Nimzowich-Salwe,Karlsbad 1911 but it's not because bishop is on e2 square and not on d3) 8.dxc5! (Nimzowisch style but you can play a3 to transpose) Bxc5 9.b4 Be7 10.Bd3!? (10.exf6 Nxf6 - Dom- )
- 7...fxe5 8.dxe5 (8.Nxe5 Nf6!? 9.Bh5+ g6 10.Nxg6 hxg6 11.Bxg6+ Ke7 12.Bg5 Bh6!? with the idea to exchange  much more pieces or play Qg8  ; and Black can play main lines too with 8...Nxe5 9.dxe5 and Bc6!?,Qc7 or Ne7) Qc7 9.c4!?  - Kindermann, voir aussi Romanishin-Ivanchuk, Irkustk 1986 dans BCO
Now come back to Watson move: 7...cxd4
you can play 8.exf6!? - Dom- leading to a kind of old Tarrasch with bishop on e2, or
to reply to your question,  I think White can play 11.Nc3! (11.Bd3!? is in Watson book) because one strong attack is coming with rather unprotected bishop on c5..Line to check: 11...Ne7 12.Bh5+ g6 (12...Ng6 13.Qd3) 13.Bg5 pinning knight and sacrifice must be accepted otherwise White play Bg4 with a very good game 13...gxh5 14.Qxh5+ Kf8 15.Rac1! (add one piece more to the attack with threat Nxd5) and now each passive defence (b6,Rc8,Bb6) looses after Nxd5 and e6, with only one variation left: 15...Qe8 16.Qh6+ Kg8 17.Bf6 Qg6 18.Qxg6 Nxg6 18.Nxd5 exd5 19.Rxc5 and a winning final to follow


  

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C02: Question re. Watson's advance French line
04/30/03 at 16:43:48
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Does anyone know of a good line for white against Watson's suggestion of the following line in the advance French:

1.e4 e6  2.d4 d5  3.e5 c5  4.c3 Nc6  5.Nf3 Bd7  6.Be2 f6  7.0-0 cd  8.cd fe  9.Nxe5  Nxe5  10.de Bc5?

What is the best move and plan for white in this position?  Many thanks
« Last Edit: 08/03/11 at 20:19:20 by dom »  
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