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Normal Topic Sveshnikov's 10...Bg7 (Read 3367 times)
snakebite
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Re: Sveshnikov's 10...Bg7
Reply #8 - 03/02/06 at 12:02:53
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As for Kramniks 15..Re8 what do people think about black's chances after 16 Rfe1 b4  17 Nc2 f4  18 Nxb4 Rb8  19 a3. Plus is there any improvement over Shirov -Kramnik which looks like a draw.
15..bxc4 looks like it loses after 16 Nxc4 d5  17 exd5 e4  18 Qe3 Bb7  19 d6 Qf6  20 Bc2 f4 (...Rac8 looks like a drawish line which could be an improvement) 21 Qh3 Rac8  22 b3 (Bb3 is ok for black). Now... Qg6 loses as in Grischuk-Jakovenko 2003 and ..Qg5  23 d7 lost in Anand - Kasimdzhanov 2002.
Radjabov plays 15...d5 16 cxd5 fxe4  17 Bxe4 Rb8  Black seems to equalise or get a promising position with bishops and active pieces. Howver, as in Vallejo Pons - Radjabov 2004 is there anything other than a draw after 18 Rfd1 Qd7  19 d6 Rb6  20 Qd3 Rd8  21 Rac1 Bf8  22 Qg3+ Bg7  23 Qd3 Bf8  24 Qg3+ etc
  
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Re: Sveshnikov's 10...Bg7
Reply #7 - 03/01/06 at 21:55:08
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I'm interested in the 10...Bg7 line. Critical seems to be 11 Bd3 Ne7  12 Nxe7 Qxe7  13 00 00 14 c4 f5  15 Qf3. Then what is best? Kramnik played Re8 but does it actually equalise? bxc4 looks iffy after Anand and Grischuk produced some nice novelties. d5 a la Radjabov - however, is that move only good enough for a draw as his game with Vallejo Pons from Linares 2003 could have ended in a draw by repetition.
  
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Re: Sveshnikov's 10...Bg7
Reply #6 - 07/04/03 at 05:21:16
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It is quite usual for Black to recapture on f6 with the g-pawn in the Sveshnikov - he can then use the 'new'/front f-pawn to chip away at W's light-square control by ...f6-f5, without weakening his own light square control (as the ...f7-f5 push does).  The immediate capture on f6 is not currently thought to give black any problems, as far as I am aware.

However, things can change quite quickly of course - with the amount of attention the Sveshnikov is getting at top level these days, and the resilience Black is showing in the 'main lines', White players are bound to be examining these relatively little-explored lines to look for new ways to try for an advantage.
  

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Re: Sveshnikov's 10...Bg7
Reply #5 - 07/03/03 at 18:09:38
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I play the dragon not the sveshnikov but I wanted to ask why play 8.Na3 if you can play 8.Bxf6 forcing 8...gxf6 or else 8...Qxf6  9.Nc7+?  8.Na3 allows 8...b5  9.Bxf6 when the queen can recapture.  I think taking the knight before retreating your own knight to a3 is better or at least as good for white.  Don't you?
  
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Re: Sveshnikov's 10...Bg7
Reply #4 - 05/09/03 at 12:49:39
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I put the game below, there were a fair number of mistakes since it was G/45, particularly at the end but might be interesting nonetheless

As far as practical chances go, I guess I just seem to have better experience with the lines where Bf6 gf6 occurs.

For example, in the latest tournament games I had besides the one below I got

10...Bg7 11 c3 f5 12 exf5 Bxf5 13 Nc2 0-0 14 Nce3 Bg6!?
15 h4 Be4 16 Bd3 Bxd5 17 Nxd5 f5 18 Qh5?! e4 19 Bc2 b4

and

10...Bg7 11 Qh5 Ne7 12 Ne3 f5 13 Nxf5?! Nxf5 14 exf5 e4

and in both cases black was probably already better.  Of course my opponents played bad moves as white but this is what you hope for it you are analyzing some lines out to move 25.

Whereas in some of the lines without Bf6 gf6 I always seem to have problems even when my opponents play the ?! moves. 

For example, I have been playing the 0-0, Rb8 lines in response to 9 Nd5.  I'm in a tournament playing a 1600 rated player and he goes in for this, and its clear he doesn't know what he's doing.  He commits the B to e2 before bring his N to c2, then lets me trade off the Bg5 for a Ne3.  Then I'm thinking ok, now I play Be6, maybe Ne7, Qb6, develop the rooks, push b4 and my position is looking good.

Unfortunately he goes Bg4 to trade off my light square bishop.  I make a mistake, getting scared by the possibility of having a doubled pawn on e6 and take on g4.  By then his Q is sitting on g4, N on e3, and I haven't gotten in b4 yet.  I realized I still have a bunch of pawn weaknesses, not so many pieces left to create counterplay, and his Rook is going to come sit on d1.  I think i might have lost this to a titled player, and since I'm playing a 1600 a draw is no good.  Of course I won anyway, but it seemed like I should have gotten much more out of the opening.

Two rounds later in the same tournament I'm playing his brother (2180 FIDE) plays the 9 Nd5 against me again.  He knows the theory better.  I got confused, and went for the Be6 Qd7 Bd8 Bb6 manuver when there wasn't enough time for it, and he got in a2-a4 and won a pawn, I got some consolation in the fact that i was able to play Bxd5 and he had to recapture with the epawn, and then got my B to b6 and eventually played e4 and f5 with pressure on f2 and won, but at some point I am sure he missed an opportunity to obtain a much better position.

Despite all this experience I still seem to have trouble in blitz games too, the other day my opponent played 12 Bd3 instead of Nc2.  I thought okay, easy game, I take on d5, he recaptures with the e-pawn and I have the Sveshnikov player's dream position.  Well this happened, but then I got overconfident, he played Nc2 but then I forgot to take any prophalaxis against a2-a4, and he crushed me on the Qside before I ever got my Qside play going.  I'm sure I would have played better in a slow game, but it was still kind of depressing.

Even in some of the rarer lines I've had problems.  I don't think I've ever lost a game to 7 Nd5 but I don't think my opponents played very well, the plan b4-c5 really scares me and I've seen some super GM's win nice games in the line, see Leko-Krasenkow and Anand-Topalov (this was a blindfold game though).

Lost a blitz game to 7 a4 the other day too.  Hadn't really studied it much but remembered one of the lines a little, playing 7...a6 8 Na3 Be7 9 Bg5 Bg4 10 Be2? Bxe2 11 Qxe2; here I looked at 11...Nxe4 but somehow miss counted the pieces at the end so I didn't go for it and played something like 0-0.  Soon a5, Nc4 happened and I was dead.

I personally don't like playing against 3 Bb5 that much either, although it's been a long time since I faced it in a tournament.  I started playing this line as White 6 months ago and it seems white can fight for an edge, or at least get strategic positions that may be more familar to him than his opponent.

Maybe I'll start playing the 2...e6 move order, but I'm a little disappointed with the Sveshnikov right now.  The 9 Nd5 line seems a bit unpleasant if you need to play for a win, maybe I'll look into the lines with 11...Ne7 12 Nxf6 gxf6 but I think the positions after 12 Nc2 can get pretty sterile.  I suppose skipping Rb8 for 12...Bg5 can also lead to some pretty dynamic positions after 13 a4 bxa4 14 Rxa4 a5, maybe it's worth a look.

BTW I've been meaning to reply to the King's Gambit thread but haven't gotten a chance yet.

Graham
---------------
Move *FM Michael Casella   *Graham Free          
----  ----------------   ----------------
  1.  e4             c5         
  2.  Nf3            Nc6       
  3.  d4             cxd4      
  4.  Nxd4         Nf6      
  5.  Nc3           e5         
  6.  Ndb5         d6      
  7.  Bg5           a6      
  8.  Na3           b5       
  9.  Bxf6          gxf6      
10.  Nd5          Bg7      
11.  Bd3          Ne7      
12.  Nxe7        Qxe7   
13.  c3             f5         
14.  O-O          O-O    
15.  Nc2           Rb8      
16.  exf5          e4       
17.  Re1           Bxf5      
18.  Nb4           a5      
19.  Nd5           Qe5      
20.  Bf1            Bg6      
21.  f4              Qe6      
22.  a3             f5       
23.  Qd2           Rfc8      
24.  Ne3           Kh8      
25.  Red1         b4         
26.  axb4         axb4      
27.  c4             Qf6       
28.  Rab1         Rd8      
29.  Nd5           Qf7      
30.  Ra1           Qb7      
31.  Ra4           b3      
32.  Kh1           Bf7       
33.  Ne3           Be6       
34.  Ra5           Qb4       
35.  Qxb4         Rxb4      
36.  Rb1           Rf8       
37.  Ra6           Bd4       
38.  Rxd6         Bxe3    
39.  Rxe6         Bxf4      
40.  g3             Be3      
41.  Rd1           Ra4      
42.  Rd7           Ra7      
43.  Rd5           Ra1      
44.  Kg2           f4      
45.  Re7           f3+      
46.  Kh3           Rxf1      
47.  Rdd7         Bh6      
48.  Rxh7+       Kg8       
49.  Rxh6         Rf7      
50.  Rg6+         Kf8       
51.  Rd8+         Ke7      
52.  Rd4           Re1      
53.  Rg4           f2         
54.  Rgxe4+     Rxe4      
55.  Rxe4+       Kd6      
      {White resigns} 0-1
  
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Fernando Semprun
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Re: Sveshnikov's 10...Bg7
Reply #3 - 05/07/03 at 13:17:23
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Graham,

I must apologise for the low quality of the moves given. To follow the lines I have to consult the original ChessBase file.

Regarding the chess discussion, I'd be interested in your game.

You may have a point about practical chances, but I am not too confortable when I haven't got a clue what's going on (may be one should just play the line and gain some experience). Problem is games at ICC are not too valuable, 5 min games don't mean too much and slower games mean the possibility of 'looking up the theory', so no 'real' conditions at all.

I might post some analysis (easier to follow) if I find something worthwhile. Thanks for your reply!
  

Fernando Semprun
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Re: Sveshnikov's 10...Bg7
Reply #2 - 05/07/03 at 12:29:08
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The Sveshnikov was my main opening against e4 for a while and after taking a break I have been playing it for the last 6 months again, and have adopted the 10...Bg7 line.  This move really seems like a good practical choice.  Most players seem unprepared to meet it and a master I know who plays the Sveshnikov as black didn't even know Bg7 was a line.

Since I adopted Bg7 I have only met 11 Bd3 twice, both times against 2350 US rating players.  Both played c3 instead of c4.  The first time I didn't really understand what was going on and lost but after I played through a lot of games in the line and won the second game.  This line doesn't seem too difficult for black.  I played the main line given by Yakovich in the second game but he deviated with the worse Bf1 instead of Bc2 on move 20 or so.  I can post the game if anyone is interested.
There is even an interesting option that Yakovich does not give, 13 c3 f5 14 0-0 Bb7 15 exf5 Qg5 16 g3 h5
A few guys like GMs Lobron and Vaisser have played this way and won quickly but there are very few games.

Let's look at the c4 line you posted with 15 Qf3 as this seems really critical.  Anand - Kazimdzanov makes 22...Qg5 look bad.

As far as I can tell after 22...Qg6 23 Rad1

23...f3 has not been played.  I don't have any idea what is going on here.  Your parentheses are hard to follow but looks like you give 24 d7 Rcd8 25 Rd6 (+- Fritz).  Doesn't seem encouraging.  The endgame after 25..Qxg2+ 26 Qxg2 fxg2 27 Rfd1 looks very difficult for black, or after 25...Qg5 26 Rfd1 white has a monster on d7, an extra pawn, and I don't see a clear plan for Black.  But maybe some else can find something better.
Maybe 23...f5 is better but I still like white after 24. d7 Rcd8 25 Rd6

The published analysis I saw gave 23...Rc5 24 d7 Rh5 as being fine for Black but in the Aeroflot tournament, Grischuk came up with a huge novelty (although the computer finds it immediately), 25 Qf3! and got an almost winning position even though it was only a draw.

Maybe 15 Qf3 Re8!? is the way to go.  If I meet this line it is certainly what I am planning to play.

Although this is looking pretty good for white theory wise it seems in practice I am not so concerned about it.  It seems you are facing an IM or GM it is unlikely white will know all this theory, and even if he does the positions are still messy enough to give some chances.

Graham
  
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Re: Sveshnikov's 10...Bg7
Reply #1 - 05/01/03 at 18:53:03
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You can insert the diagram in here by placing a straight jpg or gif picture of it somewhere on internet/server and then linking to it via url and using the tags above the message composer.
  
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Fernando Semprun
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Sveshnikov's 10...Bg7
05/01/03 at 17:52:51
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Hi all!

Having played the Schveningen for 25+ years, I am studying the Sveshnikov due to Yakovich's excellent 'The Complete Sveshnikov' book.

In his book he advocates more for 10...Bg7, although there are a number of questions unanswered...

Anybody cares to start a discussion? I'll provide some moves.....



Sveshnikov - 9.Bf6   (10...Bg7 11.Bd3) [B33]
Main Line
[Semprun,F (Much based on Yakovich's book or games on TWIC)]

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Bg5 [ 7.Nd5 Nxd5 8.exd5 Nb8] 7...a6 8.Na3 b5 9.Bxf6 gxf6 10.Nd5 Bg7 Black should play 10...Bg7 to avoid the Bb5/Nb5 sacrifices I think (to analyse them. Obviously top players HAVE THE TIME [ 10...f5] 11.Bd3 The variation starts here!

(How do you insert a diagram, pls?)

11...Ne7 12.Nxe7

[ 12.Qh5 Nxd5 13.exd5 e4 14.Be2 ( 14.Bxe4 f5 15.Bxf5 Bxb2 16.0-0 Bxa1 ( 16...Bxf5 17.Qxf5 Bxa3 18.Rfe1+ Kf8 19.Rab1 Rg8 20.Qxh7 Qf6 Pure Fritz8) 17.Rxa1 Qf6 18.Re1+ Kf8 19.Bd3µ A Yakovich line; ]

12...Qxe7 13.c4!

[ 13.c3 f5 14.0-0 ( 14.Nc2 Qb7! ( 14...Bb7 15.exf5 Qg5 ( 15...d5 16.0-0 0-0 17.Qh5 e4 18.Be2 Rad8 19.Ne3) 16.Ne3 d5 17.0-0 h5 18.Qe2 0-0 19.f6 Bxf6 20.f4 exf4 21.Nf5 h4 22.Rxf4 Qxf4 23.Qh5 Rfe8 24.Rf1 Qc7 25.Nh6+ Kg7™ 26.Qg4+ Kf8 27.Qg8+ Ke7 28.Qxf7+ Kd8 29.Qxf6+ Kc8 30.Nf5+-; 15.Qf3 0-0 16.Ne3 ( 16.0-0 d5 17.exf5 e4 18.Qg3 Kh8 19.Be2 Bxf5 Polgar-San Segundo, Madrid 1993 !!) 16...f4 17.Nd5 Be6 18.g4 b4! 19.c4 Bxd5 20.cxd5 Bf6 21.g5 Bd8 Dolmatov-Topalov, 1993; 14...0-0 15.Nc2 ( 15.Qh5 d5 16.exd5 e4 17.Rae1 Qc5 18.Bc2 Bd7) 15...Rb8! 16.exf5 e4 17.Re1 Bxf5 ( 17...d5!?) 18.Nb4 a5 19.Nd5 ( 19.Nc6 Qb7µ 20.Nxa5 Qa8 21.Bc2 Qxa5) 19...Qe5=;
13.0-0 0-0 14.Qf3?! f5 15.exf5 ( 15.c4 Played against me on Fritz Server, it transposes to main variation!!) 15...d5!! 16.Qxd5 Bb7 17.Qb3 e4 18.Be2 Qg5 This game is explained by Kramnik in 'Bombarding bishops'  Kasparov.com 19.Rad1 e3 20.f3 Be5 21.Nc4 Bf4 22.Rd4 Bd5 ( 22...Rad8 23.Rfd1 Bd5 24.Rxd5 Rxd5 25.Rxd5 Qh4) ]

13...f5 14.0-0

[ 14.cxb5 I have not seen an explanation of why not this 14...d5 Fritz6 book ( 14...0-0 was my old analysis 15.0-0 ( 15.bxa6 Bxa6 16.Bxa6 Rxa6 17.exf5 e4 18.Rb1 Qb7 19.0-0 d5 20.Re1 Bxb2 21.Re3 Rb6 22.f6 Bxf6 23.Rxb6 Qxb6 24.Qxd5 Qb2 25.Qd1 Rd8 26.Qf1 Qxa2) 15...Rb8 16.bxa6 ( 16.Qe2 fxe4 17.Bxe4 ( 17.Qxe4 f5 18.Bc4+ Be6 19.Bxe6+ Qxe6 20.Qc6 e4 21.bxa6 ( 21.Rab1 Rfc8) 21...Bxb2 22.a7 Rbc8; ; 16...fxe4 ( 16...Rxb2 17.Nc4) 17.Bxe4 Bxa6 18.Qh5 f5 19.Bd5+ ( 19.Bxf5 h6 20.Rfc1 Qf6 21.g4 Rxb2 22.Nc4 Bxc4 23.Rxc4 d5©) 19...Kh8; 15.0-0 0-0!? ( 15...fxe4 16.Be2) 16.exd5 e4 17.Qe2 Qe5 ( 17...Qb4 18.Bc4 Qxb2) 18.Bc4 Qxb2 19.Nc2 axb5 20.Rab1 Qe5 ( 20...Qf6 This is a 1999 correspondence game improvement! 21.Rxb5 f4 22.Rfb1 ( 22.Qxe4 As played in the game... 22...Bf5 23.Qxf4 Bxc2 24.Qxf6 Bxf6 25.Rc1µ I believe, but it is not clear;  22.f3 e3 23.Rd1 Ba6 24.Rb4 Bxc4 25.Qxc4 Rfc8 26.Qb3 Qc3ƒ 27.Qxc3 Rxc3 28.Ne1 Rxa2 29.Rxf4 Rd2 Black looks much better, no matter Hiarcs) 22...f3; 21.Rxb5 f4 22.d6 f3 Tagnon-Oms, Olot 1994 23.gxf3 Nicole Tagnon (2120) only played Qd2 here and lost 23...Qxd6 24.Qxe4 Ba6 ( 24...Qg6+ 25.Qxg6 hxg6 26.Nb4 Bh3 27.Re1²) 25.Rg5 Qf6 26.Rg3 Rfe8 27.Qd3]

14...0-0 15.Qh5

[ 15.Re1 fxe4 16.Bxe4 Rb8 17.cxb5 axb5 18.Qd3 f5 19.Bd5+ Kh8 20.Nxb5 e4 21.Qb3 Be5! 22.a4 Bd7µ;
15.Qe2 Bb7 16.Rad1 Rad8 17.f3 fxe4 18.fxe4 f5 19.Nc2 fxe4!;
15.cxb5 d5 This transposes to d5. I played Yakovich recommendation on ICC here of...( 15...axb5 16.Nxb5 Bb7 Need to understand chess! ( 16...d5 Was my next move 17.exd5 e4 18.Bc4+- Well, not so clear... 18...Bxb2 19.Rb1 Be5 20.Qe2 Qg5 21.f3 e3 22.f4 Bxf4÷) 17.exf5 d5 18.Nc3 e4 19.Bc2 Qe5 20.Qg4; ;
15.Qf3 Re8 a Kramnik line...




( 15...bxc4 This seems cleaner (kramnik sacrifices are hard to understand) 16.Nxc4 d5 17.exd5 e4 18.Qe3 ( 18.Qe2 Semprun 18...Bb7 19.d6 ( 19.Bc2 Bxd5 20.Nb6 Rad8 21.Nxd5 Rxd5 22.Rad1 Rb5 23.Bb3 f4) 19...Qg5 ( This could be stronger 19...Qe6!? 20.Bc2 f4) 20.Bc2 Rae8 Fritz ( 20...Rfe8 Semprun 21.Rad1 f4 22.Qd2 Rad8 ( 22...Re6 23.Qa5) 23.Qa5; 21.Rad1 f4 22.Qd2²; 18...Bb7 19.d6 Qf6 20.Bc2 f4 21.Qh3 Rac8 22.Bb3 ( 22.b3 Qg5 ( 22...Qg6! 23.Rad1 ( 23.d7 Rcd8 24.Rad1 f5 25.Rd6 Rf6 26.Qh4 Qg4 27.Qxg4 fxg4 28.Rfd1) 23...f3 ( 23...f5 Fritz8, and it doesnot look bad) 24.d7 Rcd8 25.g3 ( 25.Rd6+- Fritz8) ; 23.Rad1 ( 23.d7 Hmm... This is problems (Anand-Kasimdzhanov, 2002) 23...Rc7 ( 23...Rc6 24.Bxe4;  23...Rcd8 24.Nd6+- This move is avoided by £g6) 24.Rad1 Bd5 25.Nd6 Rxc2 26.Qf5 Qxf5 27.Nxf5 Rd8 28.Rxd5±; 23...f5 24.d7! Shirov-Arizmendi, Spain 2001 24...Rcd8 25.Nd6 Bc6 26.f3 Here Arizmendi played e3. Hiarcs recommends £e7 or £g6... 26...Qe7=; 22...Rc5 23.Rad1 Rg5 ( 23...Rd8 24.d7 Bd5³) ; 16.Rfe1 b4 17.Nc2 f4 18.Be2 ( 18.Nxb4 Rb8 19.Nc6 Qg5 20.Nxb8 Bg4 21.Qxg4 Qxg4 22.Nxa6÷ Kramnik 22...f3 23.g3) ] 15...Rb8! 16.exf5 e4 17.Rae1 Bb7 18.Re3 [ 18.Qg4 This need s separate section. Dvoirys-Yakovich, for starters 18...Rfe8 ( 18...Kh8 The safe option... 19.Bxe4 Rfe8 20.Re3 Bxe4 21.Rfe1 Qf6 22.Rxe4 Rxe4 23.Qxe4 Qxb2 24.Qd3 Qc3 25.Qxc3 Bxc3 26.Rb1=) 19.f3 ( 19.cxb5 d5 20.bxa6 Bc6 Here only 21.a7 is given although... 21.b3 This looks impossible at first sight because of the a3 knight, but there is also the f6 nuisance ( 21.a7 Rxb2 22.Rc1 exd3 23.Rxc6 Qe2 24.Qa4 Ra8 25.Rcc1 Rb7 26.Nb5 d2 27.Rb1 Raxa7 This trick is the latest game played here) 21...Bd7 22.Nb1 Qe5 23.Be2 Bxf5 24.Qg3; ] 18...bxc4 19.Bxc4 d5 20.Bxd5 Bxd5 21.f6 Qxf6 22.Qxd5 Qxb2=

As you see, there are plenty of 'unclear' or 'underdeveloped' areas. Anybody wishing to pick up a line?

Regards,




  

Fernando Semprun
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