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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"... (Read 9532 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #20 - 09/17/05 at 06:24:07
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I’ve just become the proud possessor of Tiger’s Modern, which is giving hours of fun! Following earlier posts I thought people might be interested in a summary of what he says about the anti-Austrian line 4 f4 a6 5 Nf3 b5!? 6 Bd3 Nd7. (As regards 5 …Nd7, though he mentions the ideas of Thiede he says 6 a4 is good for White, e.g. 6 …e6 7 a5 or 6 …b6 7 Bc4!. He also calls 6 …Bb7 dubious because of 7 a4.)

I  7 e5. Now he analyses two systems:

(a)  7 …c5!?

(i) 8 Be3 Bb7 transposes to IIa
(ii) 8 Ng5 (8 e6?! fe) Nh6 (8 …cd!?) 9 e6 Nf6 10 dc dc 11 Be3 Be6 is good for Black
(iii) 8 0-0 Bb7 9 Be4 Be4 10 Ne4 cd 11 ed Qb6 12 f5 gf 13 Ng3 e6 14 Qe1 Qc5!
(iv) 8 Be4 Rb8 9 0-0! b4!? (9 …cd!?) 10 Ne2 Qc7 is dangerous but Black is ‘alive’


(b)  7 …Bb7

(i) 8 Be3 c5 transposes to IIa
(ii) 8 0-0 c5 9 Be4! Be4 transposes to Ia(iii)
(iii) 8 Be4 Qc8 9 Qe2 Nh6!
(iv) 8 a4 c5 9 dc (9 ab cd) b4 unclear
(v) 8 Qe2 c5 (8 …Nh6 is given, but no mention of Svidler’s 9 a4) and now 9 e6/Be4/ed/Ng5
(vi) 8 Ng5 isn’t mentioned! (ChessPub gives 8 …e6 9 d5 ed?! 10 e6!, but 9 …Nc5 is OK?)


II  7 Be3 Bb7

(a) 8 e5 c5 (also 8 …e6, 8 …Nh6) 9 Be4 Be4 10 Ne4 Nh6

(b) 8 0-0 c5 9 dc Nc5 10 Bc5! dc (10 …Bc3) 11 e5 Qb6

(c) 8 Qe2 c5 9 dc Nc5 10 Bc5! Bc3 11 bc dc


III  7 0-0 c5 8 dc Nc5 9 Be3 Bb7 transposes to IIb


IV  7 a4(!) b4 8 Ne2

(a) 8 …a5 (8 …c5?! 9 c3) 9 0-0 Ba6 10 Bb5! is a bit better for White

(b) 8 … Bb7 9 0-0 Ngf6 10 e5 Nd5 11 a5! c5 12 Ng5 cd!? 13 e6 is better for White.


Conclusion: 7 a4 appears to be a bit of a problem! But in IVb, is there much/anything wrong with 11 …0-0, I wonder …

I hasten to add, the above is only the barest summary. In almost every line Tiger presents a good deal of original analysis as well as explanation, in what I’m finding a really fascinating book.
« Last Edit: 09/18/05 at 05:40:25 by Michael Ayton »  
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Michael Ayton
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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #19 - 09/04/05 at 19:09:30
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Just back in Forum action after mega-work-in followed by short holiday!

Many thanks Eddie and everyone else for some interesting comments. I see what you mean, Eddie, about that knight! I got interested in this line ’cos I noticed a German(?) player, Thiede, has played it quite a bit with good results, but I can see Black is walking a tightrope. Still, it would be good to see some actual analysis of these positions. I admit I got no further myself than the following vague thoughts:

I  6 Bc4 e6!? and now 7 f5 (7 0-0 Ne7!?) Nb6 8 fe Nc4 9 ef looks critical, but does it work?

II 6 Bd3 c5 7 d5 b5 8 0-0 Nb6 (Negele--Thiede) and can Black benefit from the odd Nb6 to get in …e6 before he gets mated?

III  6 e5 c5 7 Bc4 cd (7 …Nh6!?) and I haven’t a clue what’s going on! All help gratefully received!

Unless these lines can be made to work, then with the …a6/…b5 lines, and the Austrian Attack, looking good for White, maybe Black’s best is to choose a 2 …d6 move order and meet 3 Nc3 with 3 …c6 (4 f4 Qb6!)? -- but obviously he’s now committed to …c6 rather than …a6 lines against 4 Be3.
  
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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #18 - 08/26/05 at 16:26:59
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I think that the critical variation of 5..c5 is 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.e5 Ng4 8.Bxd7+! Qxd7 9.d5 dxe5 10.h3 e4! 11.Ne4 Nf6 12.Nxf6 Bxf6 13.0-0 0-0 14.c4! e6 15.Ne5 is good for White.

What do you think about it?
  
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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #17 - 08/24/05 at 04:50:33
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I think that it is best to play 1.e4, g6 2.d4,Bg7 3.Nc3,d6 4.f4, Pf6 and play a Pirc. 4.f4, a6 is too dangerous, look at some games played by really strong players.

Against other variantions I prefer 4..., a6. I think in some cases (against 4.Be3 en 4. Bg5 for instanvce) these variations are better than a normal pirc!
  
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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #16 - 08/20/05 at 23:09:22
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Glad to see Tiger's book is out! I wonder, Prince-Nez, if you could tell us briefly what, if anything, he says/thinks about these lines:

1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 a6 5 Nf3 b5 6 Bd3

1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 Nd7 5 Nf3 a6 (5 ...c5!?)

1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 Nc3 a6 4 f4 b5

1 e4 g6 2 d4 d6 3 Nc3 a6

Any other thoughts on the book would be useful too! Do you like it? Does he give much new analysis?


I got the book in the mail today.  It is a slightly oversized paperback and is 216 pages long.   Tiger uses the complete game method.  There are 69 of them.

My first impression is that this is a quality book that is a notch or two above most of the Everyman opening books (which normally use the same format) out there.  Tiger seems to have a very engaging style and there is  a good mixture of lines of analysis and descriptive prose.    I would say the book is certainly more of a repertoire book then an exhaustive treatise on the Modern.  Still, the coverage is significant if not exhaustive.

Each chapter (and most or all of the games) ends with some concluding remarks and Tiger seems quite enthusiastic about Black's chances in every one of them.  He clearly loves and believes in this opening.  I think the exception is the variation (1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.c4 d6 4.Nc3 e5) he gives if Black wants to avoid the KID.  He admits that the transposition to the KID is more "reliable" then the line he gives.

Of the four specific variations you gave, I could only find the first one in the book.  I couldn't find the move order of the last three.  I think every game has Black playing d6 before a6 and a6 before Nd7.  I could be wrong.  I'll double check it. 

There is a good bit on your first variation.  I think the first eight or nine games have that move order and there are 37 total pages on the Austrian (f4) variation.  Please give me a few days or so (I am rather busy at the moment) and I'll try to give you some detail on that variation.     Although I wish TopNotch or one of the other really strong players here would get the book and save me the trouble.   Roll Eyes I am not certain how well I could condense it for you.

As far as him giving new analysis, I would say the answer is yes.  Again, I am very far from knowledgeable about this opening but even with that caveat and only a superficial look through the book, I think I can confidently say this isn't a database dump.  That a lot of work went into the book and that it shows up on the page. 

I hope this helped in a small way.  I'll be back with more in due course. 
  

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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #15 - 08/17/05 at 01:10:40
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[quote author=Michael Ayton  link=1052204015/0#12 date=1124135464]This is very helpful, Eddie -- thanks!

I'd be particularly interested to know what Tiger, and you, think of 1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 a6!? 5 Nf3 Nd7!?.

[/quote]

I like the looks of 6.e5!? here, after which if Black doesn't get slaughtered in his bed, he still has an uphill battle to develop his Kingside pieces effectively and get a playble game. 6.Bc4 is interesting too, but my experience with this move in hippo type positions is that if it fails tactically then the Bishop is just misplaced on c4.  

The problem for Black in all these lines is timing an effective central counter strike, and quite frankly it isn't clear that he can achieve this.

Energetic play by White seems to often expose the soft under belly of these incorrect systems.

TN ;D  

Postscript: I concur with Eddie regarding [b]'OFWATA'[/b], the line they propose against 5...c5 is not entirely convincing.    
« Last Edit: 08/24/05 at 16:50:58 by TopNotch »  

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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #14 - 08/16/05 at 10:06:06
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Hi Michael,

I can see why 5...Nd7 could be an appealing concept, however in this position I doubt I would go for it. The first problem that springs to mind is 6.Bc4 with a view to chopping on f7, however even after the more standard 6.Bd3 I don't see that Black has gained anything by delaying b7-b5 (6...c5 7.d5 appears better for white, largely because the knight is presently misplaced on d7).

Best wishes,

Ed
  
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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #13 - 08/15/05 at 20:14:35
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A quick database check has Chernin playing all kinds of things against the Pirc, but lines with 3 Bd3 and 4 c3 being the most common.  In Pirc Alert, he recommends 4 g3 for amateurs...
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #12 - 08/15/05 at 19:51:04
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This is very helpful, Eddie -- thanks!

I'd be particularly interested to know what Tiger, and you, think of 1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 a6!? 5 Nf3 Nd7!?.

  
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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #11 - 08/15/05 at 19:38:08
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Chernin tends to play 1.d4 and 1.c4 as White, although I don't actually think he plays that much these days.

The Austrian is currently the biggest problem for Black in both the pirc and the modern.

OFWATA Vol. 4 is generally very good on the Pirc, and notably it does contain several improvements over established theory.

By way of recommendations, the most popular line for black at present is 5...c5 and I can't see OFWATA changing this. Firstly because I think the recommendation has been incorrectly assessed as favourable to White, secondly because Khalifman advocates the variation on the basis that Shirov plays the particular line chosen. This latter assertion is true to a point, however if you examine Shirov's games (where in any case he has not been able to prove an edge) you'll find that he actually actively avoids the endgames which Khalifman recommends as good for white.

In my opinion Black actually is in big trouble in the mainlines of the 5...c5 variation, however it is not because of the stuff contained in OFWATA vol 4.

Re Tiger's Modern, I get the impression that he considers White to be better with best play, but not by a significant margin. The book is highly entertaining, refreshingly honest and packed full of great games, big improvements, new ideas and explanatory content.

Anyway, must run. i hope this helps a little.

Ed
  
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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #10 - 08/15/05 at 19:22:54
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Tiger has suffered a couple of recent setbacks in his pet system. Perhaps he was distracted by meeting the deadline on his new book.

Also the latest 'Opening For White According To Anand' volume has really thrown a spanner into Tiger's Modern, with White players already beginning to reap the benefits in droves.



Thanks for the info, Top.  I am really looking forward to Tiger's book now..... Roll Eyes  Grin
  

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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #9 - 08/15/05 at 19:00:29
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By the way, how does Chernin himself meet the Pirc. Wink

This may give White some useful hints on how best to dismantle it.

TN Grin
  

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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #8 - 08/15/05 at 18:58:32
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Tiger has suffered a couple of recent setbacks in his pet system. Perhaps he was distracted by meeting the deadline on his new book.

Also the latest 'Opening For White According To Anand' volume has really thrown a spanner into Tiger's Modern, with White players already beginning to reap the benefits in droves.

I strongly suspect these 'OFWATA' volumes will win some kind of series of the Millenium award. These books in many cases are not only on top of theory, but sometimes ahead of it. Wink   

Toppy Grin
  

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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #7 - 08/15/05 at 17:12:24
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Quote:
Glad to see Tiger's book is out! I wonder, Prince-Nez, if you could tell us briefly what, if anything, he says/thinks about these lines:

1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 a6 5 Nf3 b5 6 Bd3

1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 Nd7 5 Nf3 a6 (5 ...c5!?)

1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 Nc3 a6 4 f4 b5

1 e4 g6 2 d4 d6 3 Nc3 a6

Any other thoughts on the book would be useful too! Do you like it? Does he give much new analysis?


I'll be happy to once I get the book.  By "purchased" I meant I  ordered it online.  I haven't received it yet but it shouldn't be too much longer.

I am hardly an authority on the opening (having yet to play it as black and very rarely facing it as white) but I'll offer any other thoughts I can.


  

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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #6 - 08/15/05 at 14:38:06
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Glad to see Tiger's book is out! I wonder, Prince-Nez, if you could tell us briefly what, if anything, he says/thinks about these lines:

1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 a6 5 Nf3 b5 6 Bd3

1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 Nd7 5 Nf3 a6 (5 ...c5!?)

1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 Nc3 a6 4 f4 b5

1 e4 g6 2 d4 d6 3 Nc3 a6

Any other thoughts on the book would be useful too! Do you like it? Does he give much new analysis?
  
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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #5 - 08/15/05 at 13:10:56
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I haven't heard anything about a new edition of Pirc Alert, but as a lover of Pirc-Modern systems generally I can heartily recommend this system. The analytical content is very good (although a bit dated now, and perhaps with a slight bias in Black's favour) however the feature which truly distinguishes this work is the quantity and quality of explanatory content. Quite simply you cannot study this book properly without improving some (or more likely several) aspects of your opening and middle game play.

Hope this helps,

Eddie


Eddie,

Thank you.  I actually own Pirc Alert (Ah, the joys of being a compulsive chess book buyer!)  I picked it up because I was a 1.e4 player at the time and thought it might be of use.  I haven't put it to the use I might have but I still can see that your judgment of its merits is correct.

Actually, I have been considering taking up the Pirc/Modern having just also purchased "Tiger's Modern" by Tiger Hillarp Persson.

One last thought on Alburt.  I don't think his most recent black repertoire book (Chess Openings for Black, Explained) rises nearly to the level to Pirc Alert.  I was quite underwhelmed and shipped it back to Amazon. 

Thanks again for your thoughts.
  

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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #4 - 08/15/05 at 12:31:06
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I haven't heard anything about a new edition of Pirc Alert, but as a lover of Pirc-Modern systems generally I can heartily recommend this system. The analytical content is very good (although a bit dated now, and perhaps with a slight bias in Black's favour) however the feature which truly distinguishes this work is the quantity and quality of explanatory content. Quite simply you cannot study this book properly without improving some (or more likely several) aspects of your opening and middle game play.

Hope this helps,

Eddie
  
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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #3 - 08/02/05 at 22:19:23
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I heard on Fred Wilson's Chessfm show tonight that there is a second edition coming out of Pirc Alert.  I checked Amazon and they don't seem to have it in their system yet.  Does anyone know anything about this and when it might come out?
  

We work in the dark - we do what we can - we give what we have. Our doubt is our passion and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art. &&~ Henry James
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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #2 - 05/08/03 at 21:28:14
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Agreed.  It is a good book, despite the few faults.  I don't play the Pirc directly, but I am a KID player, and in those cases where White plays 1.d4 but doesn't follow up with 2.c4 or c4 very soon, the game often transposes to the Pirc.  The book is very good, and actually scored me two much-needed points... one as Black, the other as White, because I had read parts of it.  The book also gave me a very healthy respect for the Pirc complex, although I am not a Pirc player per se.
  
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Re:  playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
Reply #1 - 05/06/03 at 03:40:37
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As a lifelong Pirc player, I think "Pirc Alert" is quite a good book - although maybe a bit prone to exaggerating Black's chances and also rather too full of hyperbole from Alburt about how wonderful Alex Chernin is.

Also good is the "Explosive Opening Repertoire for Black" book, which covers the Pirc - it presents a very simple (easy to learn from scratch) Pirc repertoire and gives you some nice options against non-1.e4 players too.  (Whether the repertoire can be described as "explosive" or not, when a lot of it offers early queen exchanges, is a moot point, but the lines are good!).

Even though it is quite a bit out of date now, you really ought to try and track down a copy of Nunn and McNab's "Ultimate Pirc" if you want to play the Pirc, while if you fancy giving the Modern move order a try and exploring some of the independent options (i.e. not transposing to a Pirc), then the Speelman and McDonald book on the Modern gives you a great feel for the sort of spirit in which you need to play these lines.
  

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playing the pirc???? and the "Pirc Alert"...
05/06/03 at 01:53:33
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Hi everyone!

as I'm starting playing the KID once again, I was considerind playing the Pirc/modern couple also.
So, I was considering wether the book by Chernin and Alburt was a good book, and a good place to start playing the Pirc. I ve found reviews ont the net and they were more or less good, but I would like more advice if possible!!!

Tkanks! 8)
  
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