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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Sicilian with 4.Qxd4 (Read 19973 times)
MNb
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #15 - 04/13/04 at 17:28:25
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Dzhumaev,M (2498) - Laxman,R (2335) [B53]
WinTV Open-1 Chennai (10), 29.01.2004

1.e4 c5 2.Pf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Dxd4 Pc6 5.Lb5 Ld7 6.Lxc6 Lxc6 7.c4 f5 8.Pc3 fxe4 9.Pg5 e5 10.De3 Pf6 11.0-0 Le7 12.Pgxe4 Pxe4 13.Pxe4 0-0 14.b3 De8 15.La3 Dg6 16.f3 Tf4 17.Tad1 Taf8 18.Pg3 b6 19.Dd3 Df7 20.Db1 d5 21.Lxe7 Dxe7 22.cxd5 Dc5+ 23.Tf2 Lxd5 24.Dc2 Td4 25.Te1 Te8 26.Dxc5 bxc5 27.Pf5 Tf4 28.Td2 Lc6 29.Pd6 Te6 30.Pc4 e4 31.Te3 Tf8 32.Td1 Tfe8 33.Td6 Txd6 34.Pxd6 Te6 35.Pxe4 Ld5 36.Tc3 Lxe4 37.fxe4 Txe4 38.Txc5 Te7 39.Ta5 Tc7 40.Kf2 Kf7 41.Ta6 Ke7 42.Ke3 Kd7 43.Ta4 Ke6 44.Ke4 Td7 45.Ta6+ Kf7 46.h4 h5 47.b4 Te7+ 48.Kd5 Td7+ 49.Kc5 Ke7 50.a4 Tc7+ 51.Tc6 Td7 52.a5 Kf7 53.b5 Ke7 54.a6 Kf7 55.b6 axb6+ 56.Kxb6 Td2 1-0

Exact data:
Both players >2400: +2, =2, -2 score 50%.
Both players >2300: +5, =4, -9 score 39%.
Both players >2200: +11, =9, -15 score 44%.
Being a teacher in mathematics and physics, I simply do not understand that healthy 60%.
« Last Edit: 08/20/04 at 04:15:33 by MNb »  

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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #14 - 04/13/04 at 07:41:03
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Well I'm a mathematician by training so I certainly wasn't intending to demonstrate a statistical edge for White from a three game sample!!! Personally I believe statistics from large databases are over-rated in terms of providing information about the strength of opening variations.  Up to at least 2200+ I think the absolute strength of any particular opening variation is not the most significant control on the result of the game. (I hope that statement doesn't get me banned from ChessPublishing.com!)

What I was trying to say is that in games between players each graded over 2400, White has done OK. I chose this arbitrary cut-off grading because I think that someone graded >2400 who plays the Sicilian against another 2400+ is likely to be quite well prepared!

I don't know of a particularly good line for white, however both (4.Qxd4 Nc6 5.Bb5 Bd7 6.Bxc6 Bxc6 7.c4 f5) 8. Nc3 fxe4 9.Ng5 and 8. exf5 Qa5 seem to lead to interesting unbalanced positions. Does anyone know of any recent "theoretical" games in either of these lines? If not I'll browse chessbase once more...
  
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #13 - 04/13/04 at 06:10:16
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I agree with MNb. To use statistics with such a small collection of games are hopeless. Probably no black player has really prepared at home to face the 7 c4-line. There are too many important lines in sicilian, so its unlikely anyone would waste time figuring out all the ideas in the variations anfter 7.c4, I agree that such a line is good for white if he want to better prepared than opponent. Personally i have played the 3 Qxd4 line twice in serious play and both where easy wins since black only had vague ideas about the opening. I won because i was more accustomed after lots of blitz playing to the seldomplayed positions.
  
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MNb
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #12 - 04/11/04 at 19:58:13
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Statistics is a dangerous subject. My private database shows a mediocre 45 % after 7.c4 f5.
But I would be glad if Unlucky or someone else could give a good line for White in this variation. Maybe 8.Nc3 fxe4 9.Ng5 is not too bad.
  

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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #11 - 04/09/04 at 17:29:45
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In defence of 7.c4 (after 4.Qxd4 Nc6 5.Bb5 Bd7 6.Bxc6 Bxc6), I note that on chessbase's public database White's scoring a very healthy 60%+ after 7...f5 between players of 2300 or higher, and 2.5/3 between players of 2400+. Not a representative sample admittedly, but evidence that the position is still OK for White. The problem with it from my point of view is that it's a very different position from those that arise from other lines of the 4.Qxd4 variation.

On the other hand I don't have much enthusiasm for White's position after 7.Nc3. White has a slight initiative but the position is probably quite congenial for Black if s/he likes open Sicilian positions. Just as bad, I think it's objectively level too.

So whilst I agree with MNb and Alumbrado that 7.c4 f5 is one of the better lines at Black's disposal, I don't think it's sufficient reason to recommend 7.Nc3 for White. 7. c4 gives White at least equality in an unusual position in which Black needs to be confident of theory. 7.Nc3 leaves an equal, fairly bland Open Sicilian-type position in which Black can do well simply by playing natural moves. At least that was my conclusion when I first looked at these lines 20 odd years ago, and I don't think much has changed to cheer White up about 7.Nc3!
  
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MNb
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #10 - 04/06/04 at 18:02:54
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In the Baker/Losetowin line, 13.Nxe5 Rfd8 and 13...h6 14.Bxh6 Ne4 15.Qh5 both resulted in draw, Vasjukov-Tal, Baku 1973 and Gipslis-Tukmakov, URS 1972.
  

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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #9 - 04/06/04 at 10:33:31
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I have also played 4. Qxd4 a lot, but now only uses it for none-sicilian experts since its unlikely that they know the theory intimately. With best play it should give equality. The most annyoing line for me have been the answer 4 ...Nf6 which i used on Bakers recommnedation to answer with 5 e5 . It forces an endgame that are only equal. On 5 Nc3 black can play ...Nc6 6 Bb5 Bd7 7 Bxc6 bxc6 when white pawn cant reach c4 ! It seems 5 Bb5+ is the only alternative but then i guess black can answer with Bd7 and white queen cant stay on d4 for long.
The mainline seems in my (subjective) opinion more interesting, since although its equal here as well, there  still are interesting middlegameplay left .The line Nc6 5.Bb5 Bd7 6.Bxc6 Bxc6  7 Nc3   Nf6 8.Bg5 e6 9.o-o-o Be7 10.Rhe1 o-o 11. e5!? dxe5 12 Qh4 Qc7 was recommended by Baker. and as everything else it only gives equality, but there are some traps and sharp play left.  For example after the natural rookmove 13 Nxe5 Rc8?, white wins with 14 Ng4!.
  
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #8 - 04/06/04 at 03:22:49
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White should definitely meet (1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 Nc6 5.Bb5 Bd7 6.Bxc6) 6...Bxc6 with 7.Nc3!

This approach is also advocated by Murray Chandler in his "Bashing the Sicilian with Bb5" video (he recommends this line for White after either 2...d6 3.Bb5+ Nc6 4.d4 or 2...Nc6 3.Bb5 d6 4.d4).

I am not so sure Black can claim full equality in the line given by MNb.  Undecided
  

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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #7 - 04/05/04 at 18:04:54
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If it was not for 7...f5 I would love to play 7.c4. But 7...f5 seems so strong, that 7.Nc3 is best, when Nf6 8.Bg5 e6 9.o-o-o Be7 10.Rhe1 o-o 11.Kb1 Qc7 12.Qd2 gives equality. The main objection from Black's point of view, is that White can force a draw at several stages by winning the d6-pawn.
  

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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #6 - 04/05/04 at 15:48:32
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Perhaps it's a bit late to add to this discussion...in case it isn't, I've been playing 4.Qxd4 for over 25 years (! is it really that long?), initially as a way to avoid theory and lately as a surprise weapon against "strong" players ("strong" to me is >2000ish). I've exclusively played lines with c4 when I can get this in (as opposed to Chris Baker's recommendation of lines based on quick development with Nc3). Usual Black replies are 4...Nc6, 4...a6, and even 4...e5 (though not many opponents have got away with this flagrant disregard of classical principles!).

The most usual and probably best is 4...Nc6 5.Bb5 Bd7 6.Bxc6. Now some surprisingly good players (most recently a c.2200) have played 6...bxc6 which imo is ?!, and I think Black is struggling after 7.c4.

Otherwise, 6...Bxc6 7.c4 (Baker prefers 7.Nc3 aiming for quick development and Q-side castling, which is also OK) and Black generally chooses 7...g6 with an Accelerated Dragon style position. I think this line works OK for white because if Black's usually a (say) Nadorf player, he's unlikely to be happy in this type of position (he's probably windering how to launch his usual minority attack with a pawn on c4!). Some less experienced players have tried ...e6 (and even ...e5?!) when again I think white is slightly better due to the "weakness" on d6 and control of b5 and d5. Generally in this type of position white builds up slowly with moves like b3, a4, Qd2, Nd4, f3 etc and waits for Black to self destruct.

The reason I lost enthusiasm for the line was when a c.230 BCF annihilated me with 7...f5!? a few years ago, which apparently is an old recommendation from BCO. If anyone has a good response to this please post it and I may take the variation up once more!
  
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #5 - 09/29/03 at 00:17:28
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I know White's playing 3.d4, but isn't this really an Anti-Sicilian system?  Not trying to be too picky, just curious.
  
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #4 - 08/21/03 at 04:27:54
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Chris Baker's book 'A Startling Opening Repetoire' recommends this for White. I think that the best moves that he gives are already recommended in this forum, but it provides very good coverage of what to do as White and Black.  Grin
  
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #3 - 08/16/03 at 15:48:28
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Smiley  I don't play this stuff with either colour - but isn't 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nf6 a move-order trick to lessen the effect of the Qxd4 line eg after 4 Nc3 cd white will not be able to play the bind in Maroczy style !?
  
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #2 - 08/11/03 at 03:54:53
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I think better is 4..Bd7 to gain a tempo attacking the queen with 5..Nc6 as white cannot pin the knight anymore.
  
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #1 - 07/03/03 at 07:06:46
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I play 4.Nxd4 but if you want to avoid the Najdorf 4.Qxd4 is a try.  The problem is if your opponent is smart he might not play the Naidorf.  He might play 4...a6, but just to prevent the bishop pin.  I think if you learn the English Attack well you can beat the Najdorf. Roll Eyes
  
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