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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Sicilian with 4.Qxd4 (Read 23598 times)
TopNotch
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #31 - 08/14/05 at 02:02:58
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My teacher (who is a strong IM) told me that the only time an early c4 is called on is when Black retakes on c6 with the b-pawn.  Then White creates a Maroczy-Bind type position with the added benefit of Black having to spend another move to play ...c5.  One may argue that the pawn on c6 benefits Black because it somewhat neutralizes the "hole" on d5, but since Black will, most of the time, fianchetto the KB, the pawn on c6 contributes better to controlling/influencing the center (or d4 at any rate) if it is on c5.

What do y'all think?


Who is your teacher?

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bckm
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #30 - 03/27/05 at 22:36:15
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I haven't checked  this message for a long time, so my apologies, Glenn, for the seeming neglect.  I was referring to WHITE playing Bxc6, not Black.  When black takes back with the b-pawn, he/she has to spend another move putting  the c6-pawn on c5, if that is his/her plan.  That's all I was trying to say.  Again, I am not nearly presumptuous enough to think I know as much as others do who are stronger players, but  I can only come from my level of understanding, and as a US Class B player, it's probably lower than yours...   Wink
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #29 - 12/19/04 at 11:21:36
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Then White creates a Maroczy-Bind type position with the added benefit of Black having to spend another move to play ...c5.  bckm


I don't understand this comment.  First of all does Black really want to play ...c5?  Secondly, I don't understand the "another move" part. In the ...Bxc6 variation, Black can't play ...c5 at all.
  
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bckm
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #28 - 11/23/04 at 11:43:12
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My teacher (who is a strong IM) told me that the only time an early c4 is called on is when Black retakes on c6 with the b-pawn.  Then White creates a Maroczy-Bind type position with the added benefit of Black having to spend another move to play ...c5.  One may argue that the pawn on c6 benefits Black because it somewhat neutralizes the "hole" on d5, but since Black will, most of the time, fianchetto the KB, the pawn on c6 contributes better to controlling/influencing the center (or d4 at any rate) if it is on c5.

What do y'all think?
  
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MNb
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #27 - 09/17/04 at 15:45:56
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Thus we may conclude, that 7.c4 is unattractive because of f5!
  

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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #26 - 09/17/04 at 03:52:08
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I guess I'd agree that the position is equal; I hadn't really been looking at variations, but figured that after b3, Qf5 would keep White occupied long enough for Black to arrange some kind of b5/d5 break.  But it doesn't seem all that easy to arrange, and play might instead continue 12. b3 Qf5 13. Re1 13...Be7 (not 13...Ng4 as 14. Qe2 e3 15. f3 is strong). 14.Ngxe4 Nxe4 15.Nxe4 0-0 16.f3 Qg6

Black doesn't have anything immediate, but can poke around on the f-file, and still has the potential to do something on the queenside.  On the other hand, d6 will eventually be a target.

Alternatively, in Dzhumaev-Laxman (with 11....Be7 12.Ngxe4 Nxe4 13.Nxe4 0-0) 14.b3 should be met by 14...d5 immediately; White has some problems coordinating if he takes the pawn, and if 15.Rd1 d4 seems nice for Black.  So instead white should use move 14 to prevent d5; Rd1 or Nc3 both work.

All things considered, I still prefer Qc8, though perhaps the alternatives deserve a closer look.  I think Black has a nice game, but maybe no more than equality.  That's about the most one can ask for, I guess.
  
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MNb
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #25 - 09/16/04 at 20:25:36
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In Dzhumaev-Gallego Jimenez, 2000, 12.b3 looks equal to me.
  

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MNb
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #24 - 09/16/04 at 20:24:44
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In Dzhumaev-Gallego Jimenez, 2000, 12.b3 looks equal to me.
  

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Armin
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #23 - 09/13/04 at 18:18:19
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Ok I see the problem now. If white continues (4.Qxd4 Bd7) 5.c4 Nc6 6.Qd2 g6 etc, black would like to play Bg4 soon and exchange, to get some darksquare control as Rogozenko recommends. In this particular line, it is better to have played 4....a6 instead of 4...Bd7.
  
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #22 - 09/13/04 at 17:49:46
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Hi guys!

I recently came home from a tournament where I faced this "unusual" variation not once, but twice! And both times I had already written Nxd4 on the scoresheet only to see the opponent take the pawn with the damned queen!

Through time I have dabbled in many different lines against various Anti-Sicilian lines including the Nc6 and f5 lines discussed here, but now I'm trying to follow Rogozenko's book so that I can master certain lines. To this end, I replied 4...a6 in both games.

But as somebody noted earlier in this forum, why not play 4...Bd7 instead if you're gonna play Nc6 later anyway? I don't see any disadvantage with this move at all, regardless of how white treats the position (with 5.Be3 Nc6 Qd2 for example, or with 5.c4)

Any thoughts?
  
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #21 - 08/20/04 at 15:08:51
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4.Qxd4 Nc6 5.Bb5 Bd7 6.Bxc6 Bxc6 7.c4 f5 8. Nc3 fxe4 9.Ng5 e5 10.Qe3 Nf6 11.0-0 and now I think that 11...Qc8 is the best continuation for Black, and the critical line for this variation.

One point of this move order is that White cannot take on e4 immediately as 12. Ngxe4 Bxe4! 13.Nxe4 Qxc4 (Dzhumaev-Gallego  Jimenez, 2000).  Black managed to lose that, but was certainly better out of the opening.

Of course, playing Be7 is not bad, and Black had to work hard to lose in the game you cited.  Qd7 has also been tried, but I do not think it is as strong as Qc8.

I certainly prefer Black's chances after 11...Qc8.  White needs some new ideas here, or more likely, earlier in the line.
  
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MNb
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #20 - 08/20/04 at 04:22:01
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<An amusing line runs 10.Qe3 Nf6 11.0-0 Be7 12. Ne6 Qd7 [ok Qc8 is much better here but just watch] 13. Qh3 Qxe6! 14. Qxe6 Bd7 and the queen is trapped.  Obviously this is not best play, but cute.>
That is probably why Dzhumaev preferred 12.Ngxe4 (see above). It is a pity, that nobody has commented on this game until now. Is it right, to conclude that this game is critical for the 7.c4 line?
  

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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #19 - 08/19/04 at 17:49:36
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After looking at the ...f5 lines, I'm pretty impressed.  I think black is equalizing in the lines given.  It seems like a good practical choice - White aims for a bind and ends up with no central control.  After (4.Qxd4 Nc6 5.Bb5 Bd7 6.Bxc6 Bxc6 7.c4 f5) 8. Nc3 fxe4 9.Ng5 e5 and Black continues with Nf6, Be7 and ideas of b5 and d5.  I don't really see a plan for White.  An amusing line runs 10.Qe3 Nf6 11.0-0 Be7 12. Ne6 Qd7 [ok Qc8 is much better here but just watch] 13. Qh3 Qxe6! 14. Qxe6 Bd7 and the queen is trapped.  Obviously this is not best play, but cute.

Just another brief comment on one of Losetowin's lines: after 4...Nc6 5.Bb5 Bd7 6.Bxc6 Bxc6  7 Nc3 Nf6 8.Bg5 e6 9.o-o-o Be7 10.Rhe1 o-o 11. e5!? dxe5 12 Qh4 Qc7 13.Nxe5 Rc8? 14. Ng4! (all Losetowin's annotations)

This doesn't seem like much of a trap; after 14...Nd5 I don't see a winning plan for white.  For example, 15. Rxd5 (the only critical try) f6! 16. Bxf6 Rxf6 and Black has a nice initiative and will likely end up better, for example 17.Rd3 Rg6 18.Qh3 Qf4 19. Ne3 Bb4.
  
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bckm
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #18 - 08/15/04 at 20:56:30
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Wow, as the original poster of the topic, I'm flattered that my little line has ascended into the realm of theoretical physics and statistical analyses... I'm just a plain ol' college dropout who majored in music and whose greatest claim to fame is a coherent idea or two in the approximately 30 years I've played chess...  Wink

Since I posted the original question, I've played Qxd4 a few more times.  In my humble experience (around USCF 1700 rating), I tend to beat the weaker players and lose to the stronger ones.  So I suspect that Qxd4 is pretty much the same as most other opening lines: the player who understands it better will have the better chances.
  
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MNb
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #17 - 04/14/04 at 17:59:34
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Of course I agree with Unluckie's comments on statistics - only why do you prefer publicly available data?
I have to admit that I only have done a superficial research of the position after 7.c4 f5. But I hoped that Unlucky would come with some interesting idea - I immediately would consider seriously to add the Bb5 systems to my repertoire. I have even made a suggestion!
Remember Unlucky, that you in your first post admitted to have abandoned this system exactly because of this line. The logical conclusion is, that White should play 7.Nc3. That was my whole point. But again, I would be glad if someone can convince me that I am wrong.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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