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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Sicilian with 4.Qxd4 (Read 23357 times)
bragesjo
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #46 - 02/09/20 at 20:29:09
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Now my new conclustion are that black equliazes completly very easy in corrsspondance chess both in Qe3 line and in Bb5 Bd7 Qd3 line. However the line could stil be decent in over the board play.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #45 - 01/08/20 at 16:53:28
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The GM who created the opening database did not cover two improvments for black in line they called an edge for white where I think black has the better chanser, in one improvment there was a line with two pawns for the exchange and better play, even throught computer called it 0.00 so I played a diversion, that I will not post it here, to ensure not getting worse. However in oner the board play the improvment is very hard to see but this is corr. An even more funny point are that even in the line they covered they seemed to have missed concrete tactics by stopping one move to early where white is a pawn down with full compensation but no advantage but some material exchanged and to not be two pawns down white opens a file to a black rook.

My own conclusions this far are that Nc6 should probebly be met by Bb5 Bd7 Qd3. If black tries to be clever by playing a6 or Bd7 or Nf6 instead of Nc6, a later Qe3 system transposing is probebly best.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #44 - 12/31/19 at 08:37:24
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Syzygy wrote on 12/31/19 at 01:47:58:
I'm not sure how 8. Nd5 leads to a slight White edge. After 8...Qxe3 9. Bxe3 Rb8, the computer seems to show equality at reasonably high depths.


I will wait untill the Corr game gets past the opening fase before we can discuss this, there , I am not shure since I have not access to my usual computer so I have not got an engine at the moment. The analyses has some strange looking moves, partciaullary the start move from here, I can no realy asses the position myself without understanding why some moves are selected as main moves so it mihgt very well be equal.
The database must claim an  edge, wheneter is exist or not, for white otherwise it wold not sell Smiley
  
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Syzygy
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #43 - 12/31/19 at 01:47:58
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I'm not sure how 8. Nd5 leads to a slight White edge. After 8...Qxe3 9. Bxe3 Rb8, the computer seems to show equality at reasonably high depths.

If the best that White can do is attempt to transpose to 4...Nc6 lines after 4...Nf6, then it seems 4...Nf6 might be a superior move order, since it cuts out the Bb5 lines completely. However, who can resist attacking the queen with tempo in practice?

Edit: OK, White can still play 5. Bb5+ after 4...Nf6, but here Black can block with the bishop, which neutralizes the attempt at a Maroczy Bind set-up.
  
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #42 - 12/30/19 at 18:43:20
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On an "old wine in new bottles" note, some games with 4...Nc6 5. Bb5 Bd7 6. Qd3 (including one played by Sundar Shyam, the author of that Modern Chess product) have reached the same position as a game which stuck in my memory from ancient theory:  6.Bxc6 Bxc6 7.c4 Nf6 8.Nc3 g6 9.O-O Bg7 10.Qd3 O-O 11. Be3 a6 (Damjanovic-Gligoric, Ljubljana 1969).
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #41 - 12/30/19 at 13:23:02
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A final note, the databas has an introduction part where structues are explained. After that theory part. The theory part also covers Nf6 instead of cxd4 and also a6 and Bd7 instead of Nc6. The databas however does not covered 4 .. Nf6 diretcly only by transposings to Qe3 system (after Be2 Nc6 Qe3) and writes it can be problematic for Bb5 Qd3 players. The databases also have a few  annotated model games. The database ends up with a a couple of excercies.

EDIT
I can no give any details but they analyse 5...g6 6. c4 Bg7 7. Nc3 Qb6 (they give it a !? mark)  8 Nd5 to a slight white edge. "White has to be precise to gain an edge." I have however not looked at it mysef yet.
« Last Edit: 12/30/19 at 18:53:23 by bragesjo »  
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bragesjo
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #40 - 12/30/19 at 11:02:57
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Thanks for the replies, I will analyse it later. I got inspired when I saw the database and played 4 Qxd4 in a corr game vs a hiegher rated player  yesterday without looking at the contents first.

EDIT I will not show how the game develops s or post it here /EDIT

The databases main recommendation appears to be Qe3 system but Bb5 followed by Qd3 system is also covered as an alternative.
It is a realy low theory system for white even if one learns both options. Black can choose between g6 setups and e6 setups.
  
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mn
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #39 - 12/30/19 at 01:47:52
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I'm curious what the benefit of playing Qxd4-d3 and c2-c4 is over the Bb5+ lines of the Sicilian. White keeps an extra set of pieces on the board, but he ultimately usually has to give up the Bishop on c6, so Black has the Bishop pair and a potentially tempo against the Queen on d3 for his troubles. I haven't looked at that line in any detail though. I have been looking for a low-ish theory line against 2...d6, though, so I'm interested.
  
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #38 - 12/29/19 at 22:30:17
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The systems where White retreats the queen and aims for a Maroczy Bind structure are definitely underrated. Black can equalize against 5. Qe3 with precise play, i.e. 5...g6 6. c4 Bg7 7. Nc3 Qb6. On the other hand, I actually find 5. Bb5 Bd7 6. Qd3 to be quite annoying. White seems to score well there.

That said, is there anything wrong with the sideline 4...Nf6, where Black delays the placement of the queenside knight? White can play 5. c4, but after 5...Nc6 6. Qe3 Bg4! Black has scored well in recent games.
  
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #37 - 12/29/19 at 14:35:01
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The idea of Qe3 seems to be to play a marocy setup but with a quick Rd1, that can create tactics with e5 and then to place the c1 Bishop at b2 , often playing Rb1 before b2 to rule out tactics.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #36 - 12/29/19 at 13:33:00
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Sorry to resurect a very old thread how has the theory developed since? I saw a opening repertoar database for white at Modern Chess where white plays Qe3 instead of Bb5, I asked friend about it and he told me that Carlsen had played that way.

In the good old day when I played the Dragon with the black pieces I used to play 4 .. a6 but if white wants to play Qe3 line it almost looks like a wasted tempo on that mainline.
  
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TN
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #35 - 11/16/10 at 21:04:49
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FWIW, Rogozenko in 'Anti-Sicilians: A Guide for Black' includes a chapter on answering 4.Qd4. True, White has played 3.d4, but 4.Qd4 is clearly aimed to avoid the main lines of the Sicilian and therefore should be classified as an Anti-Sicilian.

5.Bd3 and 5.f3 are more of a grey area since they avoid the Sicilian main lines but still lead to positions with a strong resemblance to the Maroczy Bind.
  

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Siegbert T.
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #34 - 11/16/10 at 17:32:07
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TN wrote on 11/16/10 at 08:06:00:
This should be in Anti-Sicilians because the Open Sicilian occurs after 3.d4 cd4 4.Nd4 (...)

Another Anti-Sicilian 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Bb5. (...) Ditto for 5.Bd3.



Hello

Maybe it's just poor me, but I'm getting confused. After reading your text over and again, I dare say that you seem to get confused as well... Wink.

A classifying sytem like used in ECO has its merits. 2.Nf3 and 3.d4 = open Sicilian, main lines and side lines. Simple.

Huh Come to think of it, that's why I had such a hard time finding something here on my pet line 4.Qd4. Which, I hasten to add, has a somewhat larger pedigree then the open Sicilians (?!) you mentioned. Striving for a classic Maroczy setup like I discribed, an anti-Sicilian?   Shocked
Ok by me, after all the only "Sicilian" setup for white is 1.c4... Grin


Wink Greetings
  
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #33 - 11/16/10 at 08:06:00
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This should be in Anti-Sicilians because the Open Sicilian occurs after 3.d4 cd4 4.Nd4 followed by Nc3, and 4.Qd4 is a way of avoiding the main lines such as the Najdorf, Scheveningen, Dragon and Classical.

Another Anti-Sicilian that is tricky without any real theory is 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Bb5 Nbd7 6.0-0. Taking the e4-pawn is bad, but Black equalises easily with reasonable developing moves. Ditto for 5.Bd3.

Edit: Minor connection.
« Last Edit: 11/16/10 at 21:02:13 by TN »  

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Siegbert T.
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Re: Sicilian with 4.Qxd4
Reply #32 - 11/15/10 at 23:34:56
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It's been a while,  Roll Eyes, but I'd like to comment on the earlier mentioned 7.c4 f5!? sequence. I finally decided to dance around that problem with the following ideas:
1) After 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd 4.Qd4 Nc6 5.Bb5 Bd7 there's also the immediate 6.Dd3 (a move white has to make sooner or later), and only later c2-c4. Works great for me in practice.
2) There's also 5.Bc6 Bc6 6. 0-0 Nf6 7.Re1, with later c2-c4.
3) Aware black players do well to flick in 3...Nf6. No remedy for that! If you don't like 4.Nc3 (I do) , 4.Bb5+ Bd7 5.Bd7+ Nfd7 (ECO) and 6.d5 has always struck me as looking kind of nice. There's maybe even a game of chess in 5.Qd3. Fits in nicely with the line under 1).
Not that White has something , objectively, here, or under 1) or 2). He just has his game on the board and a lot free time gained with not having to study how to survive after 4.Nd4., as well as having some more time on the clock and a frustrated Dragonist or Najdorfgeek in front of you. Enjoy!

Someone mentioned (3...cd 4.Qd4 Nf6) as a good possibility; I agree, but I'd like to add a move that wasn't mentioned, I believe : White can go 5.Bb5+ here with a possible 5...Bd7 (5....Nc6 is transposing; 5....Nbd7 is 3.Bb5+) 6.c4!?.

Just my thoughts on this. If you decide to go anti-Sicilian, read up on anti-anti-Sicilian literature on go anti-anti-anti-Sicilian!
  
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