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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Play the Grob (Read 14504 times)
SWJediknight
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #34 - 01/08/09 at 22:28:06
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So Lev, what is your antidote to 1.g4 e5, with the idea 2.Bg2 h5, and meeting 2.h3 with straightforward development and the idea of exploiting the holes with Ne7-g6-h4/f4?  Note that 2.h3 d5 transposes to Markovich's suggestion of 1.g4 d5 2.h3 e5.

Also, I'll offer some antidotes to 1.g4 d5 2.e4?!:

A)  2...Nc6 3.Bg2 (3.exd5? Qxd5 -+, 3.h3 Nf6 4.d3 dxe4 with large advantage for Black- Bucker) 3...dxe4 4.Nc3 e5 5.Nxe4 Nf6 =+,

B)  2...dxe4 3.Nc3 gives another split:

B1) 3...Qd4 4. Bg2 Nc6 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Ne2 Qb6 =+,
B2) 3...e3!? 4.fxe3 (4.dxe3 Qxd1+ 5.Nxd1 Bxg4 -/+) 4...e5 5.h4 Nc6 =+,
B3) 3...e5 4.Nxe4 (4.Bg2 e3) 4...Nf6 5.Qf3 Nxe4 6.Qxe4 Qd4 7.Qxd4 exd4  =+.

I quite like the e-pawn push in line B2 to be honest.  Against gambits like the BDG, Budapest, Englund etc. the e-pawn push is generally a mistake, but here it is justified because of the weakened white kingside.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #33 - 01/08/09 at 18:02:53
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Gambit wrote on 01/08/09 at 01:38:14:
That's just saying that the line with 1 g4 d5 2 Bg2 Bxg4 3 c4 dxc4 4 Bb7 Nd7 5 Bxa8 Qxa8 is not good.


It's just saying that that's how I like to play.  Maybe it's no good for White, I'm not sure.

Gambit wrote on 01/08/09 at 01:38:14:
The point is that White does not have to play 2 Bg2 or 3 c4, for that matter.


The point of what?  But yes, I fully understand that; I was just suggesting a line of play.  


Gambit wrote on 01/08/09 at 01:38:14:
I think 2 e4! de4 3 Nc3! is a vast improvement over the 2 Bg2 line. The Zilbermints Grob Gambit is far less explored than the older Bg2 line.


You may be right, but I would be happy to take the black side of that.  
Gambit wrote on 01/08/09 at 01:38:14:
Even after 1 g4 d5 White can play 2 h3, as IM Basman does in his Grob games. Any comments on that?


Not particularly.  I am not setting forth a theory of Black's side of the Grob, just telling Schroeder how I like to play the black pieces.  But after 2.h3 I see no reason why Black should shake in his shoes.  He should probably play 1...e5.


  

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Gambit
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #32 - 01/08/09 at 01:38:14
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That's just saying that the line with 1 g4 d5 2 Bg2 Bxg4 3 c4 dxc4 4 Bb7 Nd7 5 Bxa8 Qxa8 is not good. The point is that White does not have to play 2 Bg2 or 3 c4, for that matter.

I think 2 e4! de4 3 Nc3! is a vast improvement over the 2 Bg2 line. The Zilbermints Grob Gambit is far less explored than the older Bg2 line.

Even after 1 g4 d5 White can play 2 h3, as IM Basman does in his Grob games. Any comments on that?

With regard to protecting the vulnerable h4-square, the correct defense is Nf3, stoppping the ...Ne7-Ng6-Nh4 maneuver. And the ...h5 - sortie is answered, depending on position, by either g5, Rg1, or gxh5.

Keep in touch.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #31 - 01/07/09 at 15:18:50
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Schroeder wrote on 01/06/09 at 19:11:42:
In comparison to other unusual first moves (like 1.a3 or 1.Na3 that at least do not spoil anything) 1.g4?! weakens the White position in an irreversible and unmotivated way. So I think it is not too early to claim a slight Black advantage right after move 1.

Some people already mentioned the Black setup 1.g4 e5 2.Bg2 (2.h3 Ne7!) ... h5! pointing out these weaknesses immediately.
http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_bits_pieces/041001_h_t_,mt_plsh_grb2.html


If you look down, you will see that there's been quite a bit of discussion of the Grob in earlier threads.  I share your view, but my own preferred antidote is 1...d5 2.Bg2 Bxg4 3.c4 dxc4 4.Bxb7 Nd7 5.Bxa8 Qxa8.
  

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Schroeder
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #30 - 01/06/09 at 19:11:42
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In comparison to other unusual first moves (like 1.a3 or 1.Na3 that at least do not spoil anything) 1.g4?! weakens the White position in an irreversible and unmotivated way. So I think it is not too early to claim a slight Black advantage right after move 1.

Some people already mentioned the Black setup 1.g4 e5 2.Bg2 (2.h3 Ne7!) ... h5! pointing out these weaknesses immediately.
http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_bits_pieces/041001_h_t_,mt_plsh_grb2.html
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #29 - 01/06/09 at 16:35:18
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knightmare wrote on 01/06/09 at 16:24:28:
As with other offbeat openings, the main "advantage" of the Grob IMHO is this: nearly nobody plays it. To prove its soundess, it needs tests by the "heavyweights" (2600+). Or on high-level correspondence Chess.
As that is very unlikely to happen, the Grob is playable. As is 1.f3 or 1.Na3. Quite another question is, how good it is.



Well, anything is "playable" if all it means is that a move is legal and does not immediately lose.

The Grob is not good.

I have played it often.  One time, eeven in the World Open and won sectional $$$ with it.  But, it is not sound.

The reason I play it is extolled in Chess Openings Theory and Practice, p.781, (and I quote):

"a defiant, almost contemptuous beginning, ...white appears to be saying:  See in what low esteem I hold you.  I can toy with you.....etc"

One of my favorite openings, and have used it to beat many masters otb (one time each! ~ hehe), but it is truly garbage.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #28 - 01/06/09 at 16:24:28
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As with other offbeat openings, the main "advantage" of the Grob IMHO is this: nearly nobody plays it. To prove its soundess, it needs tests by the "heavyweights" (2600+). Or on high-level correspondence Chess.
As that is very unlikely to happen, the Grob is playable. As is 1.f3 or 1.Na3. Quite another question is, how good it is.
  

ELO 2060. Corr.: 2190. Which casts doubts if I ever knew what I was doing. At least on the Board.
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #27 - 01/05/09 at 07:36:11
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The line which I think is the one to play against the Grob is

1.g4 e5 2.Bg2? h5 and black is better.
  

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #26 - 01/04/09 at 17:34:41
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In the exchange sac line 1. g4 d5 2. Bg2 Bxg4 3. c4 dxc4 4. Bxb7 Nd7

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Grob in his book recommended 5. h3 (instead of 5.Bxa8 which he gives a question mark and considers advantageous for Black) giving the following lines:

a) 5.- Rb8  6. Bd5 (also 6. hxg4 Rxb7 7. Qa4 +/-) 6... Be6 (6... Nb6 7. Bxc4 Nxc4 8. Qa4+) 7. Bxe6 fxe6 8. Qa4 +/-)
b) 5... Bh5 6. Bxa8 (or 6. Qa4! Rb8 7. Bc6 e5 8. a3! Ngf6 9. Qxc4 Bd6 10. Nf3 unclear) 6... Qxa8 7. Rh2! (the point of 5.h3)


However, his assessement of a White advantage in a) is questionable.
I see Black having a very comfortable game after 5.h3 Rb8 6.Bd5 (6.hxg4 Rxb7 7.Qa4 e6) e6 7.Bxc4 Qh4.
  
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Andrew Brett
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #25 - 08/17/05 at 06:15:13
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Thanks Top for your insight - entertaining as usual.

On a separate note the best g4 systems in my view are :

1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 g4 !? which Krazenkov has played

and the now very theoretical.

1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 c6 4 e3 Nf6 4 Nf3 Nbd7 5 Qc2 Bd6 6 g4 !?

Incidentally I once face in a grunfield the following:

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 d5 4 g4 !?

(The main idea is 4 ... Bxg4 5 Qb3 !?)

Regards

Andrew
  
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Gambit
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #24 - 08/16/05 at 19:10:09
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Actually, if you noticed, the move order is different.

GIBBINS-WIEDENHAGEN  GAMBIT : 1 d4 Nf6 2 g4

ZILBERMINTS GROB : 1 g4 d5  2 e4 de4 3 Nc3!
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #23 - 08/16/05 at 16:44:58
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Not sure about 1 g4 but one of our local club players specialises in 1 d4 Nf6 2 g4 !?

Anyone for taking this up ?

Andrew


I actually faced this one in a tournament once, and after my opponent resigned was shocked to discover it had a name 'The Gibbins-Wiedenhagen Gambit'. Grin

Hard to believe someone beat Zilber in attaching their name to one of these atrocities.

Topster Grin
  

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Andrew Brett
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #22 - 08/16/05 at 06:46:58
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Not sure about 1 g4 but one of our local club players specialises in 1 d4 Nf6 2 g4 !?

Anyone for taking this up ?

Andrew
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #21 - 08/15/05 at 23:54:14
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Oh no!  Not again!   Roll Eyes

Some unrated 5-minute alleged games?  From years ago?  Against weak players who played weakly?

Did you keep score during these alleged games?  That's impressive.  If not, how do you remember the moves?  If you didn't keep score, you must have a flawless memory or imagination.  Did someone else sit next to you and keep score during these 5-minute alleged games?

How about some real games at serious time controls against real opponents at major tournaments?  Got any of those? 

- Lost Highway
  
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Gambit
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #20 - 08/15/05 at 23:14:25
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I think we should just all take careful note of what Tony Kosten said earlier in this thread.

Playing the Grob against strong opposition is like giving a 10m headstart in a 100m dash.

1.g4 d5 2.e4  Shocked Zilber at his bizzare best.

To put the above in perspective, would you play like this against the Scandanavian 1.e4 d5 2.g4.  Grin

Perhaps we should christen the above line the 'Delayed Grob Zilber Scandanavian Gambit.'

Any takers?

Toppy Grin



Your proposed name is way too long. Grob Attack, Zilbermints Gambit, is better.  The Dutch Wikipedia chess database already lists it  as the Zilbermints Gambit. 
Yes, you can mention that it can transpose from the Scandinavian, 1 e4 d5 2 g4 , but that is about it.

Personally, I kicked ass with the Grob, more than once.
If you want, I will post some games here.

  
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