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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted" (Read 12048 times)
MNb
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #28 - 11/05/05 at 08:15:20
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In Suriname 1.d4 is almost as popular as 1.e4. But it seems, that the KID is the most popular against 1.d4. Then White players usually chose the Classical Variation. Those who don't just improvise.
The Sämisch is a rare guest.
  

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castlerock
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #27 - 11/05/05 at 02:20:13
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Every third or fourth game is likely to be a Saemisch game. 50% Saemisch seems to be too much of a proliferation.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #26 - 11/05/05 at 00:35:40
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BK, I like your idea!  There aren't many GMs who live in my area.  They fly in and out for certain tournaments, but most of our best players are in the FIDE and National Master range.  Here, there just aren't that many strong players who play the white side of 1.d4 openings.  The experts (including myself) seem to be divided between the Saemisch and the Classical lines. 

I wonder how it is in other regions?
  
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BladezII
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #25 - 11/02/05 at 23:58:43
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"... now believe that the Mar Del Plata favors White in practical games.  At least in my region. "

About practical play in the KID, I quote myself--

It takes as much work and strength to play the main lines in the KID as white.  He must be a good defender and be tactically proficient since if Black knows how to handle his tools and resources and knows the patterns and typical positions which have tactics to crown his tactical gains on White's Kingside, then if this happens, White is lost.

If Black is not trained or versed in these nuances and White is well trained or knowledgeable and tactically proficient, he is lost.   

Bottom line, in  this case the better prepared player wins or draws.... yeah.
  

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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #24 - 11/02/05 at 23:39:57
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Im my region the Samisch is most popular in the A to Grandmaster level.

I think that it would be neat to find out the styles of different regions. Maybe ill start a thread in general chess....
  
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #23 - 11/02/05 at 09:05:18
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Inn and Castlerock,

I'll be honest, until I tried the KID from the Black side and really worked hard to figure out ways to neutralise Black's thematic ...f5 push, I was afraid of the KID.

It took me almost a full year (before the age of databases) to become completely comfortable with the White side and now believe that the Mar Del Plata favors White in practical games.  At least in my region.
  
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castlerock
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #22 - 11/02/05 at 03:39:33
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Neither was I referring to Bladez's post. I was just responding to Inn2's post. At the time of my posting I wasn't even aware there existed a post between Inn's and mine.
  

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lnn2
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #21 - 11/02/05 at 02:41:34
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er. Bladez, nobody's referring to your posts, certainly not me. I was talking about the KID generally. And what's with the sudden reference to 1. e4 v. 1. d4  ???

In case you (or anybody) is wondering, I am no stranger to complications, as I play the Botvinnik Semi-Slav with both colours. Indeed the Botvinnik, and even the Dutch and Benoni are better choices than the KID, in terms of getting results from time invested, but that's another debate altogether.  Wink
  
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BladezII
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #20 - 11/02/05 at 02:32:11
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Castlerock,

I think Inn2 misread or misinterpreted what I wrote.  Notice the post above yours.  Question, did you read what I said in my post about playing the KID as Black or from the White side?
  

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castlerock
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #19 - 11/02/05 at 02:15:25
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Well said Inn2. KID is fun to play from white side even with a supposedly inferior (or shold I say not from the top of the line) system like Saemisch Bg5. Win or loss it’s not scary. But in all fairness, it’s because of the sheer number of opponents a typical 1.d4 meets at below IM levels. So an 1.d4 player is normally well experienced in KID.

That said, I too feel, with this level of theory, KID may not give fair return on investment.
  

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BladezII
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #18 - 11/02/05 at 02:05:20
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Quote:
I have met 1. d4 players who hate to face the Slav, Nimzo, Benoni, Benko and Grunfeld, but have never met a 1. d4 player who hates to face the KID. Grin So, as a practitioner of the philosophy of choosing the most "irritating variations" for my opponents, I am afraid the KID is last on my list.

The KID is not "refuted" in the same way that the Alekhine, Owen's, Scandinavian and Pirc is not refuted.  its problem is that it is too generous for White.


I did not say they hate to face the KID, Inn.

I said-- "The following is said of the main lines of the classical and sometimes on other  lines in the KID"

You got me now?

And allow me to correct you, the KID is not refuted and put a period after refuted.  Yes, I come across as ...  well, i prefer the word confident.
  

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BladezII
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #17 - 11/02/05 at 02:03:21
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Also, consider this, the dragon in the  sicilian takes a lot of work to play well;  you must keep up with the info at the professional levels, theory goes up and down, comes and goes.  I dont think people refuse to play it because it is unsound (from either the white or black  side) I think that it's just too much work.

I  feel Kasparov left or  stopped playing the KID since it is way too much work for him who devotes more time than probably any other player around to opening preparation (or he used too since he is retired, I dont know).  He also gave up the Grunfeld, which is another one of those openings that take a lot of work.  He has played all indian defenses and maybe all 1.d4 d5 defenses and they come and dissappear and I doubt it is because they are unsound for him.  I mean, has the QGA for Black been refuted ?? or  the  Nimzo??

Now, Kramnik now is mainly a 1.e4 player.  Why?  is the 1.d4 refuted or not suitable to win at high level  chess ?  I doubt it.  1.d4 is vast in theory and it should be more than 1.e4 since 1.d4 is closed games, therefore the players are  not as force to play this or  that way to achieve their aims.  In  closed games there is more maneuvering since things are not as forcing as in open games.

Most high level players play 1.e4 more than 1.d4.  1.e4 is played way more often than 1.d4.   Is 1.d4 unsound?  No.  Is 1.d4 more work?  Yes.

You got the Slave, semi-slav and all those sisters.  You have the Nimzo (a lot of theory), the Queens indian, the Catalan, the Grunfeld (which can rival  the dragon or any other sicilian in theory, and the slav can do it too), the King's Indian (we all know this one)  the classical, the 7...Na6, or  7.... exd4, or Nbd7... or..., the saemisch , the Petrosian, and so on and so on.  The QGA, the Dutch, yeah, it's  a lot.
  

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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #16 - 11/02/05 at 01:49:22
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I have met 1. d4 players who hate to face the Slav, Nimzo, Benoni, Benko and Grunfeld, but have never met a 1. d4 player who hates to face the KID. Grin So, as a practitioner of the philosophy of choosing the most "irritating variations" for my opponents, I am afraid the KID is last on my list.

The KID is not "refuted" in the same way that the Alekhine, Owen's, Scandinavian and Pirc is not refuted.  its problem is that it is too generous for White.
  
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #15 - 11/02/05 at 01:32:50
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After having the KID in my repertoire (or in my blood !--hehe)  for over 21 years, it will be 22 years next month, I think I can contribute with some advice on how to learn the KID and I can comment on its viability.

I  have found out that the KID since it's played in closed games has tools, resources, and maneuvers for Black that must be recognized, known and mastered.  You don't have to be a borned attacker, but rather you must be willing to put the work to learn how to utilize the  tools in your position.  Here is another piece of insight which those of us who have known the KID intimately have discovered-- the KID is a positionial opening.  It might be hard to understand this but I will give a humble and hopeful try to explain this.

You must work  to study and learn the placement of you pieces and pawns you must know what and when white places his pieces and pawns in a way which works against White's ability to defend his King and/or advance his Q side aims.  To further illustrate this I will touch upon one common misconception--

The following is said of the main lines of the classical and sometimes on other  lines in the KID:  "Black must look for a tactical justification to make up for his positional minuses or else he is dead lost"

On the surface this might seem true but....  Let's consider this--

All tactics are based or founded upon what the position allows.  The positional merits or demerits determine who will benefit the most from tactics.  Since this is truth, then we must also accept the following:  Black can and must find what the positional merits offer him on the K-side.  Black's positional gains on White's King or kingside enable him to find tactics that will help him achieve his goals.   All the tactics that work for Black are there because of the positional gains  he has made.

Black  must position his pieces and pawns right to make progress... this  is the positional play aspect of the KID and this is the biggest aspect of the KID.  Once those positional gains have been achieved in some level he ought to look for tactics which will work for him in one way or another.

I also counter what some fans of the white say.  I counter with this:  "White is the one that must justify his positioinal demerits on his king or kingside or else he will be suffocated or checkmated on his kingside."  It's a positional battle but Black's attack is always the more dangerous (objectively speaking) since his goal is checkmate.  I also counter with this:  "Those who are ready to battle in the main lines must come correct or else be routed."  Many times White is just not willing to debate this issue and decides to  play some anti king's indian--happens a lot and any Black KID player can tell you we face a lot  of anti KID  in our games.  Look at the Sicilian, it's a fighting defense and a lot of WHite players choose not to enter the fight so they play anti sicilian lines.

It takes as much work and strength to play the main lines in the KID as white.  He must be a good defender and be tactically proficient since if Black knows how to handle his tools and resources and knows the patterns and typical positions which have tactics to crown his tactical gains on White's Kingside, then if this happens, White is lost.

If Black is not trained or versed in these nuances and White is well trained or knowledgeable and tactically proficient, he is lost.  

Bottom line, in  this case the better prepared player wins or draws.... yeah.

allah aleina
  

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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #14 - 10/31/05 at 19:34:53
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It is amazing how chess fasion can shape the overall concenus of an opening! Kasparov stumbles badly with it a few years back in London and the doomsayers abound!
  
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