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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted" (Read 12049 times)
MNb
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #28 - 11/05/05 at 08:15:20
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In Suriname 1.d4 is almost as popular as 1.e4. But it seems, that the KID is the most popular against 1.d4. Then White players usually chose the Classical Variation. Those who don't just improvise.
The Sämisch is a rare guest.
  

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castlerock
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #27 - 11/05/05 at 02:20:13
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Every third or fourth game is likely to be a Saemisch game. 50% Saemisch seems to be too much of a proliferation.
  

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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #26 - 11/05/05 at 00:35:40
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BK, I like your idea!  There aren't many GMs who live in my area.  They fly in and out for certain tournaments, but most of our best players are in the FIDE and National Master range.  Here, there just aren't that many strong players who play the white side of 1.d4 openings.  The experts (including myself) seem to be divided between the Saemisch and the Classical lines. 

I wonder how it is in other regions?
  
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BladezII
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #25 - 11/02/05 at 23:58:43
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"... now believe that the Mar Del Plata favors White in practical games.  At least in my region. "

About practical play in the KID, I quote myself--

It takes as much work and strength to play the main lines in the KID as white.  He must be a good defender and be tactically proficient since if Black knows how to handle his tools and resources and knows the patterns and typical positions which have tactics to crown his tactical gains on White's Kingside, then if this happens, White is lost.

If Black is not trained or versed in these nuances and White is well trained or knowledgeable and tactically proficient, he is lost.   

Bottom line, in  this case the better prepared player wins or draws.... yeah.
  

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basqueknight
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #24 - 11/02/05 at 23:39:57
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Im my region the Samisch is most popular in the A to Grandmaster level.

I think that it would be neat to find out the styles of different regions. Maybe ill start a thread in general chess....
  
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #23 - 11/02/05 at 09:05:18
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Inn and Castlerock,

I'll be honest, until I tried the KID from the Black side and really worked hard to figure out ways to neutralise Black's thematic ...f5 push, I was afraid of the KID.

It took me almost a full year (before the age of databases) to become completely comfortable with the White side and now believe that the Mar Del Plata favors White in practical games.  At least in my region.
  
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castlerock
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #22 - 11/02/05 at 03:39:33
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Neither was I referring to Bladez's post. I was just responding to Inn2's post. At the time of my posting I wasn't even aware there existed a post between Inn's and mine.
  

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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #21 - 11/02/05 at 02:41:34
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er. Bladez, nobody's referring to your posts, certainly not me. I was talking about the KID generally. And what's with the sudden reference to 1. e4 v. 1. d4  ???

In case you (or anybody) is wondering, I am no stranger to complications, as I play the Botvinnik Semi-Slav with both colours. Indeed the Botvinnik, and even the Dutch and Benoni are better choices than the KID, in terms of getting results from time invested, but that's another debate altogether.  Wink
  
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #20 - 11/02/05 at 02:32:11
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Castlerock,

I think Inn2 misread or misinterpreted what I wrote.  Notice the post above yours.  Question, did you read what I said in my post about playing the KID as Black or from the White side?
  

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castlerock
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #19 - 11/02/05 at 02:15:25
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Well said Inn2. KID is fun to play from white side even with a supposedly inferior (or shold I say not from the top of the line) system like Saemisch Bg5. Win or loss it’s not scary. But in all fairness, it’s because of the sheer number of opponents a typical 1.d4 meets at below IM levels. So an 1.d4 player is normally well experienced in KID.

That said, I too feel, with this level of theory, KID may not give fair return on investment.
  

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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #18 - 11/02/05 at 02:05:20
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Quote:
I have met 1. d4 players who hate to face the Slav, Nimzo, Benoni, Benko and Grunfeld, but have never met a 1. d4 player who hates to face the KID. Grin So, as a practitioner of the philosophy of choosing the most "irritating variations" for my opponents, I am afraid the KID is last on my list.

The KID is not "refuted" in the same way that the Alekhine, Owen's, Scandinavian and Pirc is not refuted.  its problem is that it is too generous for White.


I did not say they hate to face the KID, Inn.

I said-- "The following is said of the main lines of the classical and sometimes on other  lines in the KID"

You got me now?

And allow me to correct you, the KID is not refuted and put a period after refuted.  Yes, I come across as ...  well, i prefer the word confident.
  

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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #17 - 11/02/05 at 02:03:21
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Also, consider this, the dragon in the  sicilian takes a lot of work to play well;  you must keep up with the info at the professional levels, theory goes up and down, comes and goes.  I dont think people refuse to play it because it is unsound (from either the white or black  side) I think that it's just too much work.

I  feel Kasparov left or  stopped playing the KID since it is way too much work for him who devotes more time than probably any other player around to opening preparation (or he used too since he is retired, I dont know).  He also gave up the Grunfeld, which is another one of those openings that take a lot of work.  He has played all indian defenses and maybe all 1.d4 d5 defenses and they come and dissappear and I doubt it is because they are unsound for him.  I mean, has the QGA for Black been refuted ?? or  the  Nimzo??

Now, Kramnik now is mainly a 1.e4 player.  Why?  is the 1.d4 refuted or not suitable to win at high level  chess ?  I doubt it.  1.d4 is vast in theory and it should be more than 1.e4 since 1.d4 is closed games, therefore the players are  not as force to play this or  that way to achieve their aims.  In  closed games there is more maneuvering since things are not as forcing as in open games.

Most high level players play 1.e4 more than 1.d4.  1.e4 is played way more often than 1.d4.   Is 1.d4 unsound?  No.  Is 1.d4 more work?  Yes.

You got the Slave, semi-slav and all those sisters.  You have the Nimzo (a lot of theory), the Queens indian, the Catalan, the Grunfeld (which can rival  the dragon or any other sicilian in theory, and the slav can do it too), the King's Indian (we all know this one)  the classical, the 7...Na6, or  7.... exd4, or Nbd7... or..., the saemisch , the Petrosian, and so on and so on.  The QGA, the Dutch, yeah, it's  a lot.
  

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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #16 - 11/02/05 at 01:49:22
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I have met 1. d4 players who hate to face the Slav, Nimzo, Benoni, Benko and Grunfeld, but have never met a 1. d4 player who hates to face the KID. Grin So, as a practitioner of the philosophy of choosing the most "irritating variations" for my opponents, I am afraid the KID is last on my list.

The KID is not "refuted" in the same way that the Alekhine, Owen's, Scandinavian and Pirc is not refuted.  its problem is that it is too generous for White.
  
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #15 - 11/02/05 at 01:32:50
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After having the KID in my repertoire (or in my blood !--hehe)  for over 21 years, it will be 22 years next month, I think I can contribute with some advice on how to learn the KID and I can comment on its viability.

I  have found out that the KID since it's played in closed games has tools, resources, and maneuvers for Black that must be recognized, known and mastered.  You don't have to be a borned attacker, but rather you must be willing to put the work to learn how to utilize the  tools in your position.  Here is another piece of insight which those of us who have known the KID intimately have discovered-- the KID is a positionial opening.  It might be hard to understand this but I will give a humble and hopeful try to explain this.

You must work  to study and learn the placement of you pieces and pawns you must know what and when white places his pieces and pawns in a way which works against White's ability to defend his King and/or advance his Q side aims.  To further illustrate this I will touch upon one common misconception--

The following is said of the main lines of the classical and sometimes on other  lines in the KID:  "Black must look for a tactical justification to make up for his positional minuses or else he is dead lost"

On the surface this might seem true but....  Let's consider this--

All tactics are based or founded upon what the position allows.  The positional merits or demerits determine who will benefit the most from tactics.  Since this is truth, then we must also accept the following:  Black can and must find what the positional merits offer him on the K-side.  Black's positional gains on White's King or kingside enable him to find tactics that will help him achieve his goals.   All the tactics that work for Black are there because of the positional gains  he has made.

Black  must position his pieces and pawns right to make progress... this  is the positional play aspect of the KID and this is the biggest aspect of the KID.  Once those positional gains have been achieved in some level he ought to look for tactics which will work for him in one way or another.

I also counter what some fans of the white say.  I counter with this:  "White is the one that must justify his positioinal demerits on his king or kingside or else he will be suffocated or checkmated on his kingside."  It's a positional battle but Black's attack is always the more dangerous (objectively speaking) since his goal is checkmate.  I also counter with this:  "Those who are ready to battle in the main lines must come correct or else be routed."  Many times White is just not willing to debate this issue and decides to  play some anti king's indian--happens a lot and any Black KID player can tell you we face a lot  of anti KID  in our games.  Look at the Sicilian, it's a fighting defense and a lot of WHite players choose not to enter the fight so they play anti sicilian lines.

It takes as much work and strength to play the main lines in the KID as white.  He must be a good defender and be tactically proficient since if Black knows how to handle his tools and resources and knows the patterns and typical positions which have tactics to crown his tactical gains on White's Kingside, then if this happens, White is lost.

If Black is not trained or versed in these nuances and White is well trained or knowledgeable and tactically proficient, he is lost.  

Bottom line, in  this case the better prepared player wins or draws.... yeah.

allah aleina
  

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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #14 - 10/31/05 at 19:34:53
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It is amazing how chess fasion can shape the overall concenus of an opening! Kasparov stumbles badly with it a few years back in London and the doomsayers abound!
  
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #13 - 09/17/05 at 11:31:14
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Thanks for the game, MNb.

Smyslov-fan's mentioning about black's weak d6 pawn reminded me of something very interesting that i read some years back. To add to the mystery of chess.... it seems that just because a pawn looks weak doesnt mean its weak!! Shocked

Bronstein was commenting abt the diagram below: (from Play Like a Grandmaster)

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=2b1r1k1/1p2rpbp/2pp1np1/q...

"It seems its time to reveal here the secret of the pawn at d6 in the KID. Although this pawn is on an open file & is apparently subject to attack, yet its still a tough nut to crack. Its hard to get at. What would seem easier than moving the KT at d4 away, but the point is that the Kt is badly needed at d4. Its task there is to observe the square b5, c6, e6 & f5 as well as neutralising the B at g7. The Kt can only move away from the ctr after white has prepared to meet balck's various threats (a4-a3, Bc8-e6, f7-f5) but during the time taken by these preparations Black will be able to reform his ranks.

Hence the weakness of the d6 pawn turns out to be imaginary. Modern methods of playing te opening know many of such 'imaginary' weaknesses, yet it was the supposed  'permanent' weakness at d6 that long condemned the KID as 'dubious'"

  

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basqueknight
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #12 - 09/16/05 at 23:06:57
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I went over both in my great predeccessors volume two i beleave. These games were my insiration! Bronstein makes it look so easy.

I of course noticed at once that it wasnt but i do the same thing in my games. White has nicelu placed pieces and i have engergy waiting to explode on both sides given the chance.

This is what dynamic chess truley is!
  
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #11 - 09/16/05 at 21:21:51
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Thanks, MNb!

That does ring a bell now.  I think I first saw it in a book on the KID by Raymond Keene of all people! Shocked
  
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #10 - 09/16/05 at 21:19:36
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The sister game is Pachman-Bronstein, from the same event. Playing over the two games one after another is quite hilarious.

Pachman,L - Bronstein,D [E67]
Moskwa-Praha, Moskwa (2), 1946

1.d4 Pf6 2.c4 d6 3.Pc3 e5 4.Pf3 Pbd7 5.g3 g6 6.Lg2 Lg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.b3 Te8 9.e4 exd4 10.Pxd4 Pc5 11.Te1 a5 12.Lb2 a4 13.Tc1 c6 14.La1 axb3 15.axb3 Db6 16.h3 Pfd7 17.Tb1 Pf8 18.Kh2 h5 19.Te2 h4 20.Td2 Txa1 21.Txa1 Lxd4 22.Txd4 Pxb3 23.Txd6 Dxf2 24.Ta2 Dxg3+ 25.Kh1 Dxc3 26.Ta3 Lxh3 27.Txb3 Lxg2+ 28.Kxg2 Dxc4 29.Td4 De6 30.Txb7 Ta8 31.De2 h3+ 0-1
  

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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #9 - 09/16/05 at 20:31:54
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Thanks a bunch Smyslov!!  Cheesy
  

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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #8 - 09/16/05 at 17:04:41
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Here's the Zita-Bronstein game.  This is essential viewing not just for anyone who faces the King's Indian, but for anyone who wants to know what "dynamic" chess is all about.  (There's a "sister game" that was played in the same match.  I don't remember who was White, but I'm pretty sure Geller was Black.)



Zita,F - Bronstein,D [E68]
Moscow-Prague Moscow (6), 1946

1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 Nbd7 5.g3 g6 6.Bg2 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.b3 Re8 9.Bb2 c6 10.e4 exd4 11.Nxd4 Qb6 12.Qd2 Nc5 13.Rfe1 a5 14.Rab1 a4 15.Ba1 axb3 16.axb3 Ng4 17.h3 Rxa1 18.Rxa1 Nxf2 19.Re3 Nxh3+ 20.Kh2 Nf2 21.Rf3 Ncxe4 22.Qf4 Ng4+ 23.Kh1 f5 24.Nxe4 Rxe4 25.Qxd6 Rxd4 26.Qb8 Rd8 27.Ra8 Be5 28.Qa7 Qb4 29.Qa2 Qf8 30.Bh3 Qh6 0-1

  
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #7 - 09/16/05 at 14:29:37
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The KID is definitely not refuted for if it were there would already be headlines in the chess news already. So rest assured no 'bust' lines just yet.

Other points supporting my argument here has already been addressed at length & detail by the rest, so I shall not repeat them in a different rendition.

But 2 points which I would like to repeat for emphasis: A LOT of homework & an inclination towards attacking play or at least an aggressive positional player are prerequisites to adopt it as part of one's repertoir.

@ Smyslov_fan - Do you have that Zita-Bronstein game?? If you do, would you post it up here for my play thro pleasure??
  

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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #6 - 09/16/05 at 14:06:50
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I'll never go on record as saying the entire KID is refuted, but let's remember its history.  It was considered an inferior line until the Soviet Era really took off, and the Zita-Bronstein game suggested that a revolution in chess thinking was taking place.  In that game, White had a nice comfortable center, Black had a weak d6 pawn, and Black opened up play on the Queen-side.  The game looked to be about over except that Bronstein showed the queenside attack to be a mere prelude to a furious attack across the entire board culminating in White surrendering with his king about to get mated.

This was the epitome of dynamic chess; if White had survived until the endgame, he probably would have had good chances of scoring the full point.  But he never had the chance because his "naturally" placed pieces were in no position to deal with the concrete threats of the position.

In other words, the KID has always been on the threshhold of being positionally viable.  If the concrete variations start to turn to White's favor, then Black really is in trouble.  The KID probably needs another Knight like Bronstein to come to its rescue right now. 

The King's Indian is an opening that I love to play against because I feel like I'm upholding the side of Truth, Beauty, and Righteousness against a sea of chaos.  I know from firsthand experience that the KID is extremely fertile grounds for Black to play for a win and is a dangerous weapon.  I also know that below a certain level, the KID is just a sure way to ask to get suffocated, shot, drowned, and frozen out by White. 

So unless you're Rasputin or a very strong player with a great attacking imagination, perhaps you should stay away from the KID. But do me a favor; play it against me with lots of rating points on the line for both of us!  I could always use some help since I usually only get to play tournament chess in the Summer, and I don't get many chances to gain rating points! Grin
  
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #5 - 09/16/05 at 12:20:18
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From what I gather, players at the very top, Say top 20, are worried about Re1 or ne1 lines in classical KID. At that level of understanding, they feel, it is very difficult to equalise and black would be playing for 2 results and white 3. This is what Kasparov said when he moved out of KID.

Further, I think it's Nigel Davies, opined that, basically Kasparov moved out of KID since it was too much to handle both Najdorf and KID and dropped KID (Well Basqueknight, you are in very good company Tongue)

Bottom line is, Kasparov moved out of KID, so there's something wrong with it Grin

No. I don't subscribe to it. It's a case of following the trend setters without asking questions. KID is not and (though I don't have the locus standi to say this) cannot be refuted.

But, playing KID is lot of work.
  

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basqueknight
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #4 - 09/16/05 at 09:45:47
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Very interesting thought on the whole theory over load. I must admit i play both the Najdorf and Kings Indian and it is difficult to learn two dynamic systems which is why i still trot out hte french and the Owens on occasion. But i could save a lot of time and energy if i were to drop one of them.

Dont know if i will soon but if i had to i would keep my kings indian as it has prove it self constantly for me. The play is dynamic and i can start counter atacking very quickly. The Bayonet attack doesnt care me that much i have only played against it tiwce with score of 1.5 out of 2 not bad.

But if the Kings Indian is ever refuted then it will become a culy like the crazy BDG guys. Imagine our magazine Kings Indian World

Heh it would be neat

Maybe we should have one any way even if were not a chess cult.

But yeah if a refutation is ever shown i think we need to keep an eye out for those guys who throw out all the crap about a line being bad cause people tell me the owens is bad and these people are the people i beat with it. Others who i havent played say it is weak but so what. After they kill me as white ill believe them and it better be in the opening to show that my owens is refuted. Other wise i wont believe you for a second.

So people who say they refute need to back it up in spades. Like more than one game of beating a past or present world champion.
  
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #3 - 02/22/04 at 04:17:24
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Kasparov played 1.e4 against Radjabov in Linares 2004, as already in Linares 2003!
Surely you know that Radjabov plays exclusively the Kings Indian against 1.d4, instead he stopped playing the Dutch Stonewall.
I think this reveals a lot about the quality of this opening!

  
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #2 - 08/30/03 at 14:38:00
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I agree, the KID is far from refuted. I remember looking at the Bareev-Radjabov Game in the Chesspublishing.com column is Chess Life and Radjabov seemed to be fine throughout the game. However, Kasparov's point about playing the Sicilian and KID is absolutely true. I used to play the KID along with my standard Dragon and found the theory to be too overwhelming so I switched to the Dutch. If you play another opening against 1. e4 that requires less theory than a Dragon or Najdorf and can learn another major opening, KID is an excellent choice and a fierce defense. I loved the positions I would get when playing the KID. But between all the novelties coming out of the Classical Variation and the constant need to keep up to date with the Saemisch, I just couldn't do that and keep up with the Dragon Yugoslav as well. For those who are having trouble managing the theory of a Sicilian or 1...e5 along with the KID, I would recommend the Dutch (Modern Stonewall or Leningrad) or Modern/Pirc (1...d6) as they are both solid openings which, like the KID, can also arise from 1. Nf3 and 1. c4. I especially like playing 1...f5 against the English.
  
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Re: Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
Reply #1 - 08/02/03 at 03:36:45
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Kasparov lost in the variation of the mainline King's Indian with Nc6 in the subvariation called the Bayonet Attack that starts with 9 b4. See the game between Bareev and Radjabov in the may-update for an example of this variation. Black was struggling in this variation a few years ago, but by the summer 2003, black seems to have some good answers yet again. But the Bayonet may still have triggered Kasparovs decision to quit the KID. The real reasons I believe is indicated in an interview he gave on his now obsolete www.kasparovchess.com.

1. Too much material to cope with in the Najdorf and the KID at the same time. He chose the Najdorf..

2. White has a couple of safe mainline choices if he just studies a bulk of the main theory. (For "normal" players that is not so easy..)

My comment: The point is that Kasparov and Polgar have to meet all the supergrandmasters. To all us others down below there is no problem to keep playing the KID which give a lot of attacking possibilities. Normal players don't defend that well. And Radjabov, Topalov and others keep playing the KID at the super grandmaster level. The KID is not refuted!
  
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bckm
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Nasty Rumor about KID being "refuted"
07/25/03 at 18:53:34
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I have played the KID pretty much since Christ walked the earth... I have recently begun to hear it's been "refuted".  Shocked   It's at times like these that I'm glad I'm a skeptic by nature, because I find that difficult to believe.  Nonetheless, I've heard it from more than a couple of otherwise reputable sources, and Garry Kasparov and Judit Polgar seem to have stopped playing it.  Is that largely due to fashion, or is there something to it?  What is the line that "they" say "refutes" the KID?

Personally, the KID is not always a good weapon for me because I like a good fight.  When White wimps out and plays something "solid" or "unassuming", my first reaction is "how silly---FIGHT, you moron!" and my second reaction is "I'm falling asleep here at the chessboard".  Which is usually a psychological victory for my opponent.  So, I've started looking at the ...e6 stuff, but that's another topic. 

Can anyone tell me what this stuff is about the KID being "refuted", and by what?

Thanks!
  
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