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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Black Defense vs. Ruy Lopez (Read 34128 times)
TopNotch
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Re: Black Defense vs. Ruy Lopez
Reply #24 - 08/15/05 at 17:40:53
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As for me , I am an addict of 2 Knights Defense , so I am faithful to Open Defence , that leads to the same kind of play : those who use to play 3 Bc4 with White ought to consider this point
And , among the Open Defence , I am chiefly fond of the Dilworth that gave me 66% with Black


The pros and cons of the Dilworth variation maybe a mute point, since currently 9.Be3 is considered very good for White. For example:

[Event "IV Pablo Gorbea Mem Open"]
[Site "Madrid ESP"]
[Date "2000.??.??"]
[White "Korneev,O"]
[Black "Martinez Lizarraga,M"]
[Round "7"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2619"]
[BlackElo "2048"]
[ECO "C80"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 b5 7. Bb3 d5 8. dxe5 Be6 9. Be3 Bc5 10. Qe2 Bxe3 11. Qxe3 Na5 12. Nc3 Nxc3 13. Qxc3 Nc4 14. Bxc4 bxc4 15. b4 O-O 16. Nd4 Qd7 17. a4 Rfe8 18. Rfe1 Rab8 19. h3 Rb6 20. a5 Rbb8 21. Qd2 Rec8 22. Ra3 c5 23. bxc5 Rxc5 24. Rg3 Bf5 25. Qf4 Be6 26. Qh6 g6 27. Nf3 Rf8 28. Ng5 f6 29. Nxh7 [Splat!!]  1-0

[Event "CCA-ICC Open"]
[Site "Lake George USA"]
[Date "2005.??.??"]
[White "Shabalov,A"]
[Black "Mikhalevski,V"]
[Round "6"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2593"]
[BlackElo "2572"]
[ECO "C80"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 b5 7. Bb3 d5 8. dxe5 Be6 9. Be3 Be7 10. c3 O-O 11. Nbd2 Kh8 12. Bc2 f5 13. exf6 Nxf6 14. Ng5 Bg8 15. Nb3 Ne5 16. Bd4 Nfd7 17. Nxh7 Rf4 18. Nf8 Rh4 19. Nxd7 Nxd7 20. g3 Rh6 21. Be3 Bg5 22. f4 Be7 23. Nd4 Bh7 24. Bxh7 Rxh7 25. Nc6 Qe8 26. Qxd5 Ba3 27. Bd4 Bxb2 28. Rae1 Qh5 29. Qg2 Ba3 30. Ne5 Nf8 31. f5 Rc8 32. f6 gxf6 33. Rxf6 c5 34. Nf7+ Kg7 35. Be5 Re8 36. Rf5+ Rxe5 37. Rexe5 Qd1+ 38. Rf1 Qd3 39. Ng5 Nd7  1-0

And with that total carnage I bid you adieu.

Topster Grin 
  

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photophore
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Re: Black Defense vs. Ruy Lopez
Reply #23 - 08/15/05 at 16:31:21
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Hi Markovitch!
I apologize to refer to one of my games
You can find it almost evrywhere , chiefly in MegaCor3 of Harding , but also in corrdatabase and Das Gambit Lexikon :
Heikkinen-Le Page ( Finland-France 1977 )
Is it really += ?
Korthnoi agrees ( but who relies on Kortchnoi's assessments?)
Keres says it's "Unklar"
Estrin assess it as =
Sapoundjiev prefers Black ( but who reads Bulgarian?)
As for me , I followed Sapoundjiev , and I won!
  
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Markovich
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Re: Black Defense vs. Ruy Lopez
Reply #22 - 08/15/05 at 13:13:08
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As for me , I am an addict of 2 Knights Defense , so I am faithful to Open Defence , that leads to the same kind of play : those who use to play 3 Bc4 with White ought to consider this point
And , among the Open Defence , I am chiefly fond of the Dilworth that gave me 66% with Black


I share your tastes but I don't like the Dilworth so much.  It is much less an "attack" than a way of converting into a very challenging ending.  Personally I think this ending is +=, but then, so is the initial position.
  

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photophore
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Re: Black Defense vs. Ruy Lopez
Reply #21 - 08/15/05 at 11:31:09
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As for me , I am an addict of 2 Knights Defense , so I am faithful to Open Defence , that leads to the same kind of play : those who use to play 3 Bc4 with White ought to consider this point
And , among the Open Defence , I am chiefly fond of the Dilworth that gave me 66% with Black
  
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Markovich
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Re: Black Defense vs. Ruy Lopez
Reply #20 - 08/13/05 at 16:36:58
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I think Markovich is simply quoting from Mark Morss of Hard Chess fame. Grin

Be that as it may I think the Classical and/or the Cozio are reasonable defences to the Ruy for the less sophisticated/experienced player.

I actually play the Classical myself and can attest first hand that it isn't half bad. Moreover it sidesteps the most potent form of the exchange Ruy which can be quite annoying to face at times.

Topalot Grin   


Yes, I find that I almost never disagree with that most estimable fellow.
  

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TopNotch
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Re: Black Defense vs. Ruy Lopez
Reply #19 - 08/13/05 at 14:01:47
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I think Markovich is simply quoting from Mark Morss of Hard Chess fame. Grin

Be that as it may I think the Classical and/or the Cozio are reasonable defences to the Ruy for the less sophisticated/experienced player.

I actually play the Classical myself and can attest first hand that it isn't half bad. Moreover it sidesteps the most potent form of the exchange Ruy which can be quite annoying to face at times.

Topalot Grin  
« Last Edit: 08/17/05 at 19:25:06 by TopNotch »  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Black Defense vs. Ruy Lopez
Reply #18 - 08/13/05 at 04:11:52
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Interesting thoughts, urusov. I wonder, though, whether you think Black can get a decent position with the 5 …Bc5 Bird’s if White does play the correct 7 Ba4. When I looked at this recently it seemed good for White. Do you think Black can equalise, and if so what do you think is best play?

You’re probably aware that Christoph Wisnewski has been working hard, in another post here (q.v.), to make 5 …c6 6 Bc4 Nf6 7 Re1 d6 8 c3 Ng4 9 h3 Ne5 10 d3 Qb6!? work. At present the main line seems to be 11.a3! Nxc4 12.dxc4 dxc3 13.Nxc3 Be7 14.Bf4(!), leading, according to kevinludwig, to a good ending for White, but possibly there’s more to be discovered here.

My own anti-Lopez enthusiasm at the moment is for 3 …g6!?.
  
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urusov
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Re: Black Defense vs. Ruy Lopez
Reply #17 - 08/12/05 at 14:23:43
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I am a big believer in the Bird's.  I especially like the line that goes 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nd4 4.Nxd4 exd4 5.O-O Bc5 6.d3 c6 7.Bc4 (better is 7.Ba4 followed by f4) 7....d5 8.exd5 cxd5 and, despite the doubled pawns, Black has great play.

Unfortunately, or fortunately (depending on your perspective), there is not a lot of good theory out there except in old books--mostly because not many high-level players play it.  And all the theory is pre-computer, so it's not to be trusted.

I'd recommend just looking at a lot of games with the Bird at one of the database sites and getting a feel for the lines that way.  There is also an article online by Watson at the Jeremy Silman site:
http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_opng_anlys/040208_ruy_lpz_brd_dfns.html
He is looking at a specific, off-beat line, though, so it might not be a lot of help unless you like it... 

If you are adventurous, you might also consider the Schliemann:
http://home.eplus-online.de/schach/jaenisch.pdf
http://www.chessville.com/instruction/Openings/Martin/Sep04b.htm

Some consider it even more playable than the Bird's.  There is a lot of theory on that one.  Smiley

  
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Re: Black Defense vs. Ruy Lopez
Reply #16 - 08/12/05 at 07:25:27
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Hi Folks!

Although I hardly ever play 1...e5 in "serious" OTB games, I must confess that I have a soft spot for the Modern Steinitz (Neo-Steinitz, Steinitz deffered) 1.e4 e5
2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 d6.
Paul Keres used to play this over his entire career. I really like his games with it! Others practioneers are L. Portisch, Aljekhine, Spassky. Not bad company!
'Lesser mortals' in the list are Westerinen and Ciocaltea.
Check out their games. There's great stuff here.
Additionally, the Modern Steinitz is very unpopular nowadays; always a big point in favour of an opening in these database-times. Unfortunately, there are no books on this subject. (At least I don't know of any.)
I think this is the only line that could make me take up 1...e5 as Black!
  
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Re: Black Defense vs. Ruy Lopez
Reply #15 - 06/21/05 at 08:49:46
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@Markovich, why not reverse the move order to 3.. Bc5 and 4.. Nf6?
Saves a bit on learning 4d4.


It all depends on what you think of 3...Bc5  4. c3 Nf6  5. d4, which I find much more threatening than 4. d4.  For what it's worth, "Offbeat Spanish" agrees.
  

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Re: Black Defense vs. Ruy Lopez
Reply #14 - 06/17/05 at 05:38:21
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Markovich and I have debated this in another thread, but I have forgotten which one ...
  

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Re: Black Defense vs. Ruy Lopez
Reply #13 - 06/17/05 at 04:51:26
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@Markovich, why not reverse the move order to 3.. Bc5 and 4.. Nf6?
Saves a bit on learning 4d4.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Markovich
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Re: Black Defense vs. Ruy Lopez
Reply #12 - 06/16/05 at 15:18:20
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I want to start playing 1...e5 more frequently when confronted by 1.e4, and am trying to figure out what I should play if hit by the Spanish.  For background purposes, I play at about 1450 USCF and have been mucking around with the Scandinavian and French for some time but have never buckled down and studied those lines (mostly because 1.d4 if far more popular with my usual circle of opponents).  I'm looking for something that's solid, provides relative active play and counter-chances, but that is strategically straight-forward as befits my hacker rating.

Unfortunately, the e-books here are little help in my quest.  At the moment, I'm thinking about exploring Bird's Defense or the neo-Steinitz.  Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Admonitions?  Recommendations?  Warnings? 


For players at your level, I strongly recommend 1. e4 e5  2. Nf3 Nc6  3. Bb5 Nf6  4. O-O Bc5.  My students play this and have good success with it.  Black simply activates his pieces and looks for opportunities.  You have to be familiar with some theory, but so what?   You also have to know how to play against 4. d4, which is no big problem.

White keeps his += birthright with best play, but it does require some sophistication on his part.  I would not wring my hands over this, since White is += after 3. Bb5.

I have played the Schliemann (Jaenisch) a great deal with good success, but I've concluded that it is unsound.  Also it is not really good for a player's chess education, since it sacrifices time in exchange for space -- a dangerous procedure, especially for the inexperienced.
  

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IM Christoph Wisnewski
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Re: Black Defense vs. Ruy Lopez
Reply #11 - 06/16/05 at 14:19:54
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As for Birds defence - Black moves his knight twice in the opening just for it to be exchanged  - so not popular with the GM's.


That is a bit too dogmatic in my opinion. Bird's Defence is heavily underestimated thanks to numerous (if not all) authors quoting a certain line given in Euwe's "Theorie der Schacheröffnungen" back in the 1960s.

Bird's Defence is a very nice offbeat, and a serious alternative to those so-called "main lines", but it is very important to learn the ideas behind the lines. Furthermore, it can get very tactical, so I don't know if a 1400 player should employ it. But if you seek fun, and want to throw your opponent off balance, feel free to explore it.

And if you are uncertain about certain lines, feel free to open a discussion Smiley
  

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Re: Black Defense vs. Ruy Lopez
Reply #10 - 01/16/04 at 18:11:44
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Just a thought - maybe the Schliemann is worth a try? I played it at the 1450 level when I rarely attempted the Lopez as black, and knowing the lines well, I scored 100% from my games with it. Simple, black usually gets the pawn back or, at least, a position which most white players at that level will crumble in. Black's plan of attack is fairly simple, and it will teach you the values of piece play and attacking quite well. The points you'll pick up from scared white players playing 4.d3 will be a bonus Wink

As for the exchange variation, I've never failed to get a promising position with 5...Bd6.

Regards,
Craig  Grin
  

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