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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) What's wrong with the Russian (Read 9151 times)
JN
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Re: What's wrong with the Russian
Reply #14 - 02/22/08 at 08:17:46
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In the 3.d4 line, why not play 3.-Nxe4 4.Bd3 Nc6!?
  
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micawber
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Re: What's wrong with the Russian
Reply #13 - 02/21/08 at 21:47:40
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@@ amateurdragoneer:
Statistics alone doesnt say much:
I browsed the high level games you mentioned 
Adams-Petric (1/2-1/2), McShane-vd.Sterren (0-1), 
Tiviakov-v Wely (1/2-1/2), T.Oral-???? (1-0)
These games didnt give me the impression, that black has
difficulties equalizing, if he takes a minimum of care.

The russian remains a solid defence.
I guess we have to wait, what Anand will prepare against Kramnik,
and see if Kamsky's choice in december was a one time outing,
or that there was more to it....




  
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bob000
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Re: What's wrong with the Russian
Reply #12 - 02/21/08 at 06:36:02
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In the ending you refer to I don't think black can save the knight and two minor pieces are suppose to have the edge against the rook. I do however remember a computer match, I think Rybka and Fritz, where black sacks the exchange to save the knight and reaches a drawn ending.
  
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bob000
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Re: What's wrong with the Russian
Reply #11 - 02/21/08 at 06:32:13
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My guess for the darth of preferance for d4 would be Krammniks treatment of the Russian. In the castle line black gives up a pawn and it appears best play leads to an major piece ending that white can't win.
  
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DoubledPawns
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1.a3 e5 2.Nc3 Ba3 3.Ne4
Bf8 4.Ra5 Ke7 5.Re5#

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Re: What's wrong with the Russian
Reply #10 - 02/20/08 at 08:18:05
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Another variation that has recently come to the fore is 3.d4 Ne4 4.Bd3 d5 5.de5!?, which was played by Kamsky to beat a weary Carlsen. Black has certainly not solved all his problems in this variation.
  

Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something - Plato
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AmateurDragoneer
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Re: What's wrong with the Russian
Reply #9 - 11/26/03 at 06:32:06
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Here's what I think is the most promising line for White:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. d4 Nxe4 4. Bd3 d5 5. Nxe5 Nd7 6. O-O Nxe5 7. dxe5 Nc5

White only scores 48% from this position. However, White scores 53.5% after 8. Nc3(!) which has been played at very high-level competition with Adams, Tiviakov, McShane, and Oral on the White side and Van Der Sterren and Van Wely defending the Black side.

With eigth move options for Black consisting of either c6 or Nxd3, White has scored 75% after both 8...c6 9. f4 and 8...Nxd3 9. Qxd3 c6 10. Ne2

That should be enough to give White some sort of advantage and While that certainly doesn't guarantee a win (or even a draw!!), it certainly gives White a good place to start from. I would like to note that it is possible that there is some new line out there in a book or NIC or that there is some refutation missing as there have been considerably few (in compared to critical lines with 3. Nxe5) games with this variation; only 14 from the position after 8. Nc3 I would also like to note that 8. Be2 is another interesting option and is much less explored than 8. Nc3
  
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Mike Thomas
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Re: What's wrong with the Russian
Reply #8 - 11/25/03 at 23:49:08
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For an illustration of the Nd7 line in action, last year I played the Russian for the first time against an ICCF 2400 rated player and I had very little trouble obtaining a draw (the game is below). We didn't leave known theory until around move 21 or so. I know that White has other moves he can play against this line, but what I've seen so far shouldn't bother Black.

Lebedev,V (2418 ) - Thomas,M [C43]
EM/CL/Q04-4 ICCF, 2002

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Bd3 d5 5.Nxe5 Nd7 6.Nxd7 Bxd7 7.0-0 Bd6 8.c4 c6 9.cxd5 cxd5 10.Qh5 0-0 11.Qxd5 Bc6 12.Qh5 g6 13.Qh3 Ng5 14.Bxg5 Qxg5 15.Nc3 Rae8 16.Rad1 Re7 17.d5 Bd7 18.Ne4 Rxe4 19.Qxd7 Qe7 20.Qxe7 Rxe7 21.Rfe1 Rfe8 22.Rxe7 Rxe7 23.g3 Kf8 24.f4 f5 25.a3 Rc7 26.Rd2 Rc5 27.Bc2 Ke7 28.Kf2 Rc4 29.Ke2 Bc5 30.b4 Bg1 31.d6+ Kd8 32.Bd3 Rc3 33.a4 Rb3 34.b5 ½-½

  
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AmateurDragoneer
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Re: What's wrong with the Russian
Reply #7 - 11/25/03 at 23:03:08
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While Michael's line with 3. Nxe5 and 5. Nc3 may be an interesting try that would work an against an unprepared player, improvements have been found and black is, to say the least, holding his (her) own in that line. With 3. d4, there's definitely some variation in the Nd7 line that White players are worried about because I can't seem to find any convincing play for Black in other lines, I'm looking for a specific variation that might be the cause of this. Until I find it, however, 3. d4 will be my weapon agaisnt the Russian as it has been (quite reliably) for almost two years. Perhaps we can compare the options of 3. Nxe5 and 3. d4 to White's options against the Alekheine Defense. One option (the 4 Pawns attack), is an ambitious line giving white the opportunity for an advantage but with more risk (this being 3. d4 against the Russian) while the Classical or Exchange lines (representing 3. Nxe5) represent a conservative contentment with a modest advantage. Till next time, I'll see if I can track down something on the Nd7 line.

Regards,

Mitch
  
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Re: What's wrong with the Russian
Reply #6 - 11/20/03 at 23:04:36
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What's wrong with the Russian?  Nothing in my opinion.  I have played the Petroff many times over the years and it has been very good to me.  In regards to your question about 3.d4 I will tell you I don't know a ton of theroy but in the tournements i've played in players of all levels tend to play 3. Nxe5 much more than 3.d4 and I am always happy when my opponent takes on e5
  
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Tzanidakis_Michael
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Re: What's wrong with the Russian
Reply #5 - 11/18/03 at 07:58:44
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I believe it was a game against karpov that changed the mind of most people:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Nc3! Nxc3 6.dxc3 Be7 7.Bf4 Nd7 8.Qd2 Nc5 9.o-o-o Bg4 which I believe that it is preferred than the d4 variation.
  
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Why did 3.d4 die out?
Reply #4 - 11/01/03 at 00:08:50
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Around 1999, it looked like 3.d4 was leading to an advantage for White.  Since then, top players have all stopped playing 3.d4.  Does anyone know what line killed it off?  Was it something in the Nd7 line?  1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 Nxe4 4.Nxe5 d5 5.Bd3 Nd7
  
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Re: What's wrong with the Russian
Reply #3 - 10/02/03 at 23:14:10
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I think it's a very good opening if you don't mind the possibility of a likely draw with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Qe2.  I think Spassky used to play this from time to time.
  
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AmateurDragoneer
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Re: What's wrong with the Russian
Reply #2 - 08/30/03 at 14:25:22
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To add to notagmyet's list of players, it should be added the Karpov used the Petroff in both of the games he played with black at the 2002 X3D Rapid Match with Kasparov in New York. He drew one and won the other. It must be noted, however, that Kasparov played 3. Nxe5 which, for reasons unknown to me, appears more frequently at higher level play than 3. d4 Anyway, the game which Karpov won can be found here: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1258398
  
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notagmyet
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Re: What's wrong with the Russian
Reply #1 - 08/30/03 at 05:42:13
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I am not sure about your position, but one idea against 3. d4 that I like is 3...exd4 4. e5 Ne4 5. Qxd4 f5!?, that Morozevich used recently.

BEsides, if the Russian was really that bad, then why are players like Anand, Adams and Kramnik playing it? I think these are better players than anybody else in this forum (no offence to the excellent gms who are putting together an excellent website.)
  

"When I am White, I am because I am White. When I am Black, I win because I am Bogolyubov" (?!) - Efim Bogolyubov, noted chess player and optimist.
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dilligaf
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What's wrong with the Russian
08/29/03 at 13:16:07
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In reply to Fred's item on E5 - gjempty wrote just don't play the Russian (Petroff).
As some strong players do use  this system, what can be wrong with it ?
One critical line appears to be:-
1 e4 e5. 2  Nf3 Nf6.  3 d4 Nxe4. 4 Bd3 d5. 
5 Nxe5 Bd6. 6 O-O O-O. 7 c4 Bxe5. 8 dxe5 Nc6.
9 cxd5 Qxd5. 10 Qc2 Nb4. 11 Bxe4 Nxc2.
12 Bxd5 Bf5. 13 g4 Bxg4. 14 Be4 Nxa1. 15 Bf4..
and can black get the Na1 back into the game without disadvantage?
                     Tony
  
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