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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C28-C29: Bishop's opening/Vienna (Read 5631 times)
M.Nb
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Re: Bishop's opening/Vienna
Reply #13 - 04/20/05 at 18:34:16
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Thanks, I completely had forgotten. But now I won't!
  
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Beetlejuice
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Re: Bishop's opening/Vienna
Reply #12 - 04/20/05 at 12:20:09
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No, Lane does not discuss that line.

BTW, I have actually answered that question already in http://altmax.com/cgi-local/cpf/YaBB.cgi?board=1-1e4e5;action=display;num=110981...  Wink.
  
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M.Nb
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Re: Bishop's opening/Vienna
Reply #11 - 04/19/05 at 20:15:51
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Has anyone purchased Lane's new book on the Bishop's Opening already? If yes, does he provide a remedy for 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 (the symmetrical 4.Nf3 d6 is not very interesting) c6 ?
  
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Re: Bishop's opening/Vienna
Reply #10 - 07/01/04 at 15:33:01
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Nolan, regarding your difficulties with White's position after 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nc3 Na5 5.Qf3: if Black plays 5...Nxc4 6.dxc4 d6 then you could avoid Bg4 by playing 7.h3. Of course, you could also consider other 5th moves (although I believe 5.Qf3 is one of the better options), such as the traditional 5.Nge2. And, there is the little played 5.Qe2 with the idea of castling queenside and eventually attacking on the kingside. While this plan is considered a bit dubious in Gary Lane's book 'Vienna game', it is perhaps more to your liking.
I agree with MNb's remark that 4...Na5 is a solid option, but for some reason I hardly face it in my games. Maybe most Black players find it a bit boring and the arising positions a bit too static.  At least, that is why I play 4...Bb4 in this position when I am Black.
  
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MNb
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Re: Bishop's opening/Vienna
Reply #9 - 07/01/04 at 08:35:58
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This thread is not about the Bishop's Opening or the Vienna, but about the Classical Defense of the King's Gambit Declined. This Defense is known to be promising for White since the days of Tsjigorin and Spielmann.
White has a move order problem here.
1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nc3 Bb4! and Na5! are both more solid.
1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 c6!? with the idea 5.f4 exf4 6.Bxf4 d5 or 6...o-o looks good for Black - as discussed in the Petrov thread.
  

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meemoe
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Re: Bishop's opening/Vienna
Reply #8 - 07/01/04 at 05:16:55
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Hi,
just like to invite any bishop's opening experts, or anyone interested over to our topic at...

http://njscf.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=amate&action=display&num=1085837829

maybe you have useful input as to what are the best moves. Thanks!
  
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IanE11
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Re: Bishop's opening/Vienna
Reply #7 - 09/14/03 at 03:13:17
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An interesting game I had in the 6...Ng4 line in the ICCF Jubilee tournament is below. This was published in Mr. Mo's e-mail section a couple of years ago.

[Event "ICCF Jubilee"]
[Site "e-mail"]
[Date "2001.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Miettinen, Kristo"]
[Black "IE"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C30"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bc4 Nc6 4. d3 Bc5 5. f4 d6 6. Nf3 Ng4 7. Ng5 f5 8. h3
(8. Rf1 h6) (8. exf5 Bxf5 9. Bf7+ Kd7 10. Nce4 exf4 11. Nxc5+ dxc5 12. Bxf4 Qe7+)
8... exf4 9. Bxf4
(Better was 9. hxg4 Qxg5 10. Nd5 Kd7 11. exf5 Re8+ 12. Kf1 h6 13. Bxf4 but my opponent had a massive grade compared to mine so I went for the draw. )
9... Ne3 10. Bxe3 Bxe3 11. Qh5+ g6 12. Bf7+ Kd7 13. Be6+ Ke8 1/2-1/2

My opponent said he got the 7...f5 idea from research he did using the chesslab database online.
  
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Garberg
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Re: Bishop's opening/Vienna
Reply #6 - 09/12/03 at 17:25:59
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1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.d3 Bc5 5.f4 d6 6.Nf3 Bg4.

Reply #2  : Playing Vienna, there is two funny position you should hope for...
The one discused with Lg4 or the other dream!? 1.e4 , e5 2.Nc3 , Nf6 3. Bc4 , Nxe4 (The variation of Dracula !) .
If black are not preapered, he would probebly have to fight with his cloock and a dificult  position.

Playing the pawn to f5 is one of the main ideas in Vienna. If white don't play 6.Lg4 , but  6.0-0 then 7. f5
is nice.

One interesting variation is 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.d3 Bc5 5.f4 d6 6.Nf3 Ng4 In the book 'The Complete Vienna' 7.Ng5 is recomended.7....., h6 and 0-0 has been tried , but maybe7 ...... exf4 or 7....Rf8 is better for black ?
(Still Reply #2 / IanE11 )
On  7.Na4 Bxf3 8.Qxf3 Nd4 Qg3 , and  9...Nxc2 10.Kd1 Nxa1 11.Qxg7 Rf8 12.Nxc5 dxc5 13.fxe5  I agree that Nxe4 !? is not is the strongest, but 13...., Nh5 is better?


alumbrado : on 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.d3 Bc5 5.f4 d6 6.Nf3 ,a6 ... Fedorov have played 7.Nd5 , Bg4 8.c3, Nh5 9.f5 ..... with good play. But I guess black can find improvments...




   
  
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Nolan
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Re: Bishop's opening/Vienna
Reply #5 - 09/12/03 at 14:30:12
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After 14.Bh6 Nf2+ obviously loses for black so maybe Qe7 is a bit more accurate.  Maybe leading to 15.Kc1 Nf2 16.Rf1 0-0-0
17.Rxf2 Rfe8 18.e6 Rd4 19.Rxf7 Qd6 20.b4 cxb4 21.Kb2 but this also is losing
So maybe the improvement needs to be found at move 13...
instead of 13.fxe5 Nxe4 black should try Ng8
then 14.Rf1 Qe7 15.Bg5 f6 16.Qxe7 Nxe7 17.exf6 Nc6
18.e5 0-0-0 19.e6 when black is lost yet again.
Okay so black is worse and probably lost in all variations after 9.Qg3
I really hate playing against 4...Na5.  I usually reply 5.Qf3 but i can never quite get my pieces coordinated in these positions.
What do you think the best line for white is in this line.  4...Na5
5.Qf3 Bg4 is also very annoying

Any thoughts or comments anyone?

Nolan
  
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IanE11
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Re: Bishop's opening/Vienna
Reply #4 - 09/12/03 at 09:14:59
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Whilst 9.Qd1 is fine but usually 9.Qg3 is played.
For example,
9...Nxc2 10.Kd1 Nxa1 11.Qxg7 Rf8 12.Nxc5 dxc5 13.fxe5 Nxe4 14.Bh6 Nf2+ 15.Ke2 Nxh1 16.Qxf8+ Kd717.Qxf7+ Kc8 18.Bg5 1-0
Treybal-Oslar, Prague 1985
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Bishop's opening/Vienna
Reply #3 - 09/12/03 at 04:04:54
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There is no doubt in my mind that after [1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nc3 Bc5 5.f4 d6 6.Nf3 Bg4?!] 7.Na4! Bxf3 8.Qxf3 Nd4?! 9.Qd1 White has a nice safe lead - he will get the bishop pair and can gain time on black's knight with c2-c3, which in turn will help to preserve his own bishop and force through an eventual d3-d4.  Having said that 9.Qg3 may well be good too.

Black should not be playing this way.  He should either play 8...Bb6 and accept a slight disadvantage or look for alternatives at move 6 (6...a6!? is probably best).

Personally, though, I would not go into this whole King's Gambit Declined variation with Black - much better to play 4...Bb4 or 4...Na5.
  

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Nolan
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Re: Bishop's opening/Vienna
Reply #2 - 09/11/03 at 22:55:16
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Thanks for the analysis.  I think you're right, but in practical play most players crumble to white's attack.  But theoretically i have always felt that white is worse if the rook is not taken right away.  Is there a move order trick earlier which prevents white from playing Bg4 altogether.  Maybe instead of 6.Nf3 white could try 6.f5 0-0 transposing into 6.Nf3 0-0 7.f5
Black of course would not castle into white's attack and would be advised to play Na5 or maybe even g6 but that looks shaky.

What to you are the best lines after white plays 6.Nf3 Bg4 7.Na4!
Is 7.Na4 Bxf3 8.Qxf3 Nd4 9.Qg3 possible or is the queen forced back to d1.

I am also interested in line 7.Na4 Bb6 8.c3!? delaying the exchange maybe leading to 8...exf4 9.Bxf4 Nh5 10.Bg5!

Lots of interesting chess.
Please reply
Nolan
  
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Garberg
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Re: Bishop's opening/Vienna
Reply #1 - 09/11/03 at 17:32:24
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I used to play like this to once ....though Na5 is much better then 7.h3... black can probebly take on c2 , and then the rock...  7.h3 Bxf3 8.Qxf3 Nd4
9.Qg3 , Nxc2+ 10. Kd1 , Nxa1 11.Qxg7, Rf8 12. fxe5 ,d5 !  13.exd5 , Rg8 is unclear , and probebly better then 13....Nd7
( worse is  12...dxe5!?  13.Bg5 , Be7 14. Rf1 , Qd4 ! (14.....,Qd7 15.Rxf6 ! is god for white)  15.Bxf6 , 0-0-0 ! 16.  Qg4 + , Kb8 17. Bxe7 , Qxc4
18. Kc1 Rxd3 19. Bxf8 is god for white. )
.... But insted of going into this extrem complications...black should play the simple  9.Nh5 ! , Qg4 10. Nxc2+ , K ??, Nxal , Qxh5 ..... and black should win

  
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Nolan
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C28-C29: Bishop's opening/Vienna
09/11/03 at 15:22:47
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In the fun vienna lines i am unsure if white can sac a rook for mate, but i think he gets good compensation.  what if black declines though.  Has 9.Qg3 been refuted?  Is Na5, really better than h3.

After 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.d3 Bc5 5.f4 d6 6.Nf3 Bg4.
In "Attacking with E4" Emms recommends Na5! winning the two bishops, but i think that i prefer the positions that result after 7.h3 Bxf3 8.Qxf3 Nd4
9.Qg3!?
I think that if black takes the rook, he will suffer tremendous kingside assault, but what if he declines with 9...Qe7 or
9...exf4 10.Bxf4 Nh5.  

Any thoughts, analysis, or games would be very helpful.
« Last Edit: 09/21/11 at 06:05:32 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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