(UTC)
Latest Updates:
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › Nimzo and Benonis › Modern Benoni › White avoids the Benoni
(Moderator: proustiskeen)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) White avoids the Benoni (Read 35501 times)
yolocounty
Junior Member
**
Offline


Yes, I push wood, why
do you ask?

Posts: 63
Location: Yolo County
Joined: 07/02/14
Gender: Male
Re: White avoids the Benoni
Reply #29 - 04/06/15 at 14:52:31
Post Tools
The Benoni with exd5 is a common guest in the Averbakh variation and is perfectly adequate for Black.  Neither side has obvious play because there are no traditional pawn majorities/breaks.

Black has to make sure to obtain some sort of counterplay; blindly trading pieces can be bad because of a plan with a2-a4-a5 and b2-b4 in the endgame.  I know it looks like White has space and nothing else apart from maybe a silly attack with f2-f4-f5, but as Black you have to be concerned first and foremost with activity, not exchanges.

That said, playing this structure "a move up" should probably be okay, as Black can get his bishop out and contest the e4 square or play a la Benko with ...b5.

The latter plan is a possibility more often than you'd think, and has the added advantage of permanently eliminating White's positional plan mentioned above.  In the Averbakh version of this line there is often a possibility of playing ...b5, cxb5 Nd7-b6, attacking the e4 pawn and threatening Nb6-c4.

Lots of ideas; not as rich a position as a real Benoni, but (a tempo down) one would think Black should be okay.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: White avoids the Benoni
Reply #28 - 03/01/08 at 23:00:12
Post Tools
Looking over some of the threads in this section I noticed that these anti-benoni questions keep coming up and that this thread is still helpful.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
alumbrado
God Member
*****
Offline


Esse quam videri bonus
malebo

Posts: 1418
Location: London
Joined: 02/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: White avoids the Benoni
Reply #27 - 11/29/04 at 11:55:47
Post Tools
The lines of the English that arise after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3 or 2...e6 3.Nf3 c5 and then either 4.Nc3 or 4.g3 are actually very interesting, albeit not easy for either side to play.

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3, MNb correctly points out the gambit line 3...cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5!? 5.Nb5 d5 6.cxd5 Bc5! (but not 6...Nxd5?? 7.Qxd5! +-) as a dynamic way to play.

4...b6 with a hedgehog approach is also quite good, although there are some tricky lines with an early Bg5 by White.

If Black prefers to aim for the Benoni by way of 2...e6,  so as to wait until White is committed to Nf3 and so avoid the Taimanov, he really has no right to complain if White then refuses to enter the Benoni at all!  Black is chickening out of the taimanov so White is entitled to chicken out of the Benoni ...

But these lines too contain plenty of play.  The key to playing Black is that the c4-pawn very often turns out to be a weakness (this is especially the case in the lines where White plays g2-g3).

Carsten Hansen's book on the Symmetrical English and the relevant volumes in Khalifman's Opening for White According to Kramnik series are good points of reference.
  
If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10765
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: White avoids the Benoni
Reply #26 - 11/29/04 at 08:57:42
Post Tools
Again Black has a decent choice:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3 d5 is Semi-Tarrasch, while 4...cxd4 can't be bad.
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5 and g6 are other possibilities.
For a Benoni-player it cannot be too hard, to find a reliable path.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
alumbrado
God Member
*****
Offline


Esse quam videri bonus
malebo

Posts: 1418
Location: London
Joined: 02/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: White avoids the Benoni
Reply #25 - 11/29/04 at 06:31:13
Post Tools
You can't force White to push his d-pawn - get over it!  Each Benoni player must find his own path ...
  
If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paulo
Guest


Re: White avoids the Benoni
Reply #24 - 11/28/04 at 22:01:00
Post Tools
Well what about 1 d4 Nf6  2 c4 e6  3 g3 c5 4 Nf3 transposing to an english? Its definitely not what i want as a benoni player.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
madhacker
Guest


Re: White avoids the Benoni
Reply #23 - 01/23/04 at 17:24:38
Post Tools
MNb:

The problem I have with your approach is that by playing the Benoni, we show that we do not want to play the Tarrasch; transposing into it, regardless of whether the line is theoretically equal, seems to be a little illogical.

As for the Panov idea, I play the Panov as White. I had the ...g6 line recently in a tournament. It was a 25 move draw where Black was under positional pressure the whole way (I was always just one move from a total positional bind), but with hardly any tactics in the game until the end (he found something to liquidate to an equal and drawn position). In the ...g6 lines, White does not play to keep the pawn - he plays d6 in short order, and either plays on the queenside against the b7 pawn (if the black pawn is on d6), or down the open files and trying to use the c5/e5/c7/e7 squares to infiltrate and create a bind (with the pawn on d5). It's not much fun for Black either way - his only realistic chance for much play is to mirror the White strategy, or to play against d4. It's symetrical, and White usually has a slight edge.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10765
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: White avoids the Benoni
Reply #22 - 01/23/04 at 16:15:16
Post Tools
When I used to play Benoni like openings - mainly the
Volga Gambit - I did not mind 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.e3
and always transposed to the Panov of the Caro-
Kann. After all, what is more unbalancing than a
double edged pawn sac?
Transposing to a symmetrical Tarrasch is not a bad
idea either: 3...e6 4.Nc3 d5 5.Nf3 a6!? and by
postponing the development of the Queen's Knight
Black can break symmetry.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
madhacker
Guest


Re: White avoids the Benoni
Reply #21 - 01/23/04 at 06:21:08
Post Tools
Returning to the 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. e3 e6 4. Nf3 lines (White's 3rd and 4th moves are often inverted, not realistically allowing a ...g6 setup), some people seem to be advocating a setup with ...b6 and ...Bb7. I think that this is wrong if White can meet ...Bb7 with d5. This essentially blunts the bishop (after ed5, cd5, d6) to such an extent that the bishop will have to move in the near future to a6 (losing a tempo and potentially not allowing the knight to d7), or instead return to c8 (losing 2 tempi)! I had a recent game like that where I was OK after about 15 moves, but only because he played a poor setup; moreover, my queenside play was looking *incredibly* slow with the b-pawn weaker and the bishop in the way on b7. So slow, in fact, that I eventually lost patience (wrongly), tried to open the centre with ...f5 and then taking on d5 instead of playing for an eventual ...b5 break (prematurely), and lost in short order (humiliatingly).

Essentially, my point is that White CAN enter a Benoni-like system, but one that (due to the loss of tempi and unnecessary queenside pawn moves) is very favourable to White. You have been warned.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
X
God Member
*****
Offline


Education is a system
of imposed ignorance.Chomsky

Posts: 571
Joined: 10/04/03
Re: White avoids the Benoni
Reply #20 - 12/19/03 at 16:28:36
Post Tools
In fact, the transposition to Benoni may be the main reason why 6...c5 isn't so popular in the Classical KID!  I am not completely sure about this, but can't black favorably delay the capture on d5 (in comparison to the Benoni move order)?  If it's true that black can aim for a favorable transposition to the Benoni when white recaptures with cxd5, then I think Black is doing well in this line.  Maybe the main problem for most people is that black must be willing to play three different types of positions (Benoni, exd5, and Maroczy) of different character.
  
Power to the People!&&http://www.gravel2008.us/           http://www.nationalinitiative.us/&&Mike Gravel for President 2008
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GMJohnEmms
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 38
Joined: 12/20/02
Re: White avoids the Benoni
Reply #19 - 12/19/03 at 08:06:31
Post Tools
I've just seen the article in NIC 64 - that's a coincidence!
Checking through games in Chess Informant it does seem as though, when faced with ...c5 in the Classical KID, White usually plays either d4-d5 (and after ...e7-e6, recapture on d5 with the c-pawn, thus entering the Benoni), or ignore the attack on d4 and offer a transposition into the Maroczy, although after 7 0-0 Black can toy with ideas such as 7...Nc6 or 7...Bg4 (instead of the obvious 7...cxd4). Even with the extra tempo, hardly anyone seems to play d5 and exd5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
X
God Member
*****
Offline


Education is a system
of imposed ignorance.Chomsky

Posts: 571
Joined: 10/04/03
Re: White avoids the Benoni
Reply #18 - 12/10/03 at 00:59:50
Post Tools
Thanks for the input!  I didn't it occur to me that  1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 c5 3 e3 g6 4 Nc3 Bg7 5 d5 0-0 6 Nf3 d6 7 e4 e6 8 Be2 exd5 9 exd5 and 1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 c5 3 g3 d5 4 Bg2 d4 5 0-0 Nc6 6 d3 e5 7 e3 Be7 8 exd4 exd4 are exactly the same position with colors reversed with white playing as black.  Apparently, some decent players (Kasparov and Petrosian (!)) don't mind playing this is as white.   

I also learned that there was a recent article written by Kirk Langeweg in New in Chess Yearbook 64 entitled A Temporary Lead in Development, which I believe is entirely about this exact postion!  (I don't have the article yet.)  After looking closer at some of the similar positions assessed favorable for white in the KID Classical with ...c5, it seemed to me that white's advantage (if there is any) seemed difficult to maintain in view of black's control of the a1-h8 diagonal and e-file, once black played ...Re8 (and maybe ...Bf5) and ...Ne4 successfully.  This started to make me think about why methods with ...c5 against the Classical KID were not more popular with all the trouble black has had in the Bayonet Attack.  Maybe it's the tranposition to the Maroczy Bind that can arise if white refrains from d5.    
  
Power to the People!&&http://www.gravel2008.us/           http://www.nationalinitiative.us/&&Mike Gravel for President 2008
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GMJohnEmms
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 38
Joined: 12/20/02
Re: White avoids the Benoni
Reply #17 - 12/01/03 at 06:09:43
Post Tools
Going back to the line 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 c5 3 e3 g6 4 Nc3 Bg7 5 d5 0-0 6 Nf3 d6 7 e4 e6 8 Be2 exd5 9 exd5, the following two games should be of interest. We have transposed to a line normally played with colours reversed in a Reti. I quite like Petrosian's position when the players agreed a draw. May be more stuff on this line on the Flank Openings site.


Petrosian,T - Korchnoi,V [A09]
Palma de Mallorca 1968

1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 c5 3 g3 d5 4 Bg2 d4 5 0-0 Nc6 6 d3 e5 7 e3 Be7 8 exd4 exd4 9 Bf4 0-0 10 Ne5 Nxe5 11 Bxe5 Nd7 12 Re1 a6 13 Nd2 Nxe5 14 Rxe5 Bd6 15 Re1 g6 16 Bd5 Ra7 17 Qf3 b6 18 Ne4 Kg7 ½-½


Kasparov,G - Pinter,J [A09]
Skara 1980

1 c4 Nf6 2 Nf3 c5 3 g3 d5 4 Bg2 Nc6 5 0-0 d4 6 e3 e5 7 exd4 exd4 8 d3 Be7 9 Bf4 0-0 10 Ne5 Nxe5 11 Bxe5 Ng4 12 Bf4 Bd6 13 Bxd6 Qxd6 14 Nd2 Qb6 15 Re1 Bd7 16 h3 Nf6 17 Qb3 Qa5 18 Nf3 Bc6 19 Ne5 Bxg2 20 Kxg2 Qc7 21 Re2 Rae8 22 Rae1 Re6 23 Nf3 Qc6 24 Rxe6 fxe6 25 Qb5 Qxb5 26 cxb5 Re8 27 Rc1 b6 28 Ne5 Nd5 29 Rc4 Ra8 30 a3 a5 31 bxa6 Rxa6 32 b4 Rxa3 33 bxc5 b5 34 Rxd4 Rc3 35 c6 Kf8 36 Rh4 ½-½

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
X
God Member
*****
Offline


Education is a system
of imposed ignorance.Chomsky

Posts: 571
Joined: 10/04/03
Re: White avoids the Benoni
Reply #16 - 11/26/03 at 14:18:11
Post Tools
6.d5 was the move that most concerned me, when I looked at this move order.  The other two lines seem to lead to a transposition to a Grunfeld or Smyslov KID, where black seems to have no problems.  However, I think white can demonstrate an advantage with 6.d5, since it seems like white has a space advantage and can obtain a powerful bind.  d4 seems a likely square for a future Nf3-d4 or Be3-d4, when either piece will be powerfully placed.  When examining this position, I could not find an effective way to break the bind before white completes his development.

What few examples I could find from this position seem to confirm that black's position is difficult to play.  Notable is Laurent Fressinet's loss, since there was major ELO difference (about 2200 and 2500 at that time).  Also the position arose from a Symmetrical English, which is an interesting possibility against an early ...g6.

This is the type of bind I was worried about.  Note that when the knights reached e5 and g4, they were simply chased back with h3 and f4.  One of the problems for black seems to be where to place his queen's knight.

[Event "Reggio Emilia 7980"]
[Site "Reggio Emilia"]
[Date "1979.12.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Hess,Ralf"]
[Black "Campioli,Giuseppe"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "A43"]
1.d4 c5 2.e3 cxd4 3.exd4 Nf6 4.c4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.d5 0-0 7.Be2 d6 8.Nf3 Nbd7 
9.0-0 Ng4 10.Nd4 Qb6 11.Ndb5 Nde5 12.h3 Nf6 13.Be3 Qa5 14.a3 a6 15.b4 Qd8 16.Nd4 Ne8 
17.Rc1 f5 18.f4 Nf7 19.Ne6 Bxe6 20.dxe6 Nh6 21.Nd5 Kh8 22.Nb6 Nc7 23.Nxa8 Qxa8 24.c5 d5 
25.Bd4 Qc8 26.c6 b5 27.Bb6 Rd8 28.a4 Rd6 29.Bxc7 Qxc7 30.axb5 Rxe6 31.Bf3 axb5 32.Qxd5 Qb6+ 
33.Kh1  1-0

Here's a try from black that seems to fail.  Black should probably be wary of d6 before moving the e-pawn:

[Event "HUN-chT 9596"]
[Site "Hungary"]
[Date "1995.??.??"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Petronic,Jovan"]
[Black "Rovid,Kalman"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "A56"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.e3 cxd4 4.exd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.d5 0-0 7.Nf3 e5 8.d6 e4 
9.Nd4 a6 10.Be2 Nc6 11.Be3 b6 12.0-0 Bb7 13.Nb3 Rb8 14.Na4 Ba8 15.c5 bxc5 16.Nbxc5 Nb4 
17.a3 Nbd5 18.Bd4 a5 19.Qd2 Bc6 20.Rfe1 Re8 21.Bc4 e3 22.fxe3 Ne4 23.Nxe4 Rxe4 24.Bxd5 Bxd5 
25.Nc3 Rxd4 26.exd4 Bc4 27.Ne4 Qb6 28.Kh1 Bxd4 29.Rac1 Be6 30.b4 axb4 31.axb4 Kg7 32.Rcd1 Be5 
33.Nc5 Bf6 34.Rxe6 dxe6 35.Nd7 Qxb4 36.Qxb4 Rxb4 37.Nxf6  1-0

This game shows how difficult it can be to break successfully with ...b5.  Here black places the knight on c5, but even here there seemed to be a tactical drawback (22.b4).

[Event "Istanbul ol (Men)"]
[Site "Istanbul"]
[Date "2000.10.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Ramsingh,Yogendranath"]
[Black "Fressinet,Laurent"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "A34"]
1.c4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 3.e3 Bg7 4.d4 cxd4 5.exd4 Nf6 6.d5 d6 7.Nf3 Bg4 8.Be2 Bxf3 
9.Bxf3 Nbd7 10.Be3 0-0 11.0-0 a6 12.Be2 Rc8 13.Rc1 Qa5 14.Bd2 Qc5 15.Qb3 Qd4 16.Be3 Qe5 
17.h3 Nc5 18.Qc2 b5 19.cxb5 axb5 20.Bxb5 Nxd5 21.Nxd5 Qxd5 22.b4 Ne6 23.Qxc8 Rxc8 24.Rxc8+ Nf8 
25.a4 Qb7 26.Rfc1 f5 27.R8c4 Bb2 28.Rb1 Be5 29.Bc6 Qb8 30.a5 f4 31.Bxf4 Bxf4 32.Rxf4 Kg7 
33.b5 Ne6 34.Rc4 Kf6 35.Re1 Nc7 36.b6 Na8 37.Rxe7 Qd8 38.Re8  1-0

In this game black plays e6, but isn't that successful either.

[Event "Istanbul ol (Women)"]
[Site "Istanbul"]
[Date "2000.10.28"]
[Round "12"]
[White "Korsakova,Tatyana"]
[Black "Ingolfsdottir,Harpa"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "A56"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.e3 cxd4 4.exd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.d5 d6 7.Nf3 a6 8.a4 Nbd7 
9.Be2 0-0 10.0-0 b6 11.h3 Bb7 12.Be3 Nc5 13.Rc1 a5 14.Nd4 e6 15.dxe6 fxe6 16.Ndb5 Ne8 
17.Bg4 Qe7 18.Re1 Qf6 19.Bxc5 dxc5 20.Bxe6+ Kh8 21.Qc2 Rd8 22.b3 Nd6 23.Nxd6 Rxd6 24.Bd5 Qxc3 
25.Bxb7 Qxc2 26.Rxc2 Rd3 27.Re7 Rxb3 28.Rce2 Bd4 29.Bf3 Bf6 30.Rb7 Rb4 31.Re6 Bd8 32.Bd5 Rxa4 
33.Rd6 Ra1+ 34.Kh2 Bf6 35.f4 Bd4 36.Rdd7 Bg1+ 37.Kg3 Ra3+ 38.Kg4 h5+ 39.Kg5 Rf5+ 40.Kh6   
1-0
  
Power to the People!&&http://www.gravel2008.us/           http://www.nationalinitiative.us/&&Mike Gravel for President 2008
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GMJohnEmms
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 38
Joined: 12/20/02
Re: White avoids the Benoni
Reply #15 - 11/26/03 at 07:13:21
Post Tools
Quote:
My main concerns against the KI/Grunfeld move order with 3...g6 were d5 followed by e4 (before black has time to play ...e6 and ...exd5).

After looking at GM Emm's suggestion, it seems like black might be OK with the Grunfeld approach also.  My major concern with the plan suggested (after white plays Nc3 {intending d5 followed by e4}, black plays ...cxd4, immediately followed by ...d5) was that if white plays Nc3, black will not have completed kingside development (castling in particular) once committed to ...d5.

Looking more closely, I noticed

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3. e3 g6 4. Nc3 cxd4 5. exd4 d5 

is by transposition to a line of the Panov-Botvinnik. 
(Precisely, 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6)
Not too bad for a move like 3.e3!  To be honest, I know practically nothing about this line, but isn't this a risky gambit line for black?  It seems like white has good chances.



Another possible move order for Black:
 
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.e3 g6 4.Nc3 cxd4 (personally I wouldn't be worried about 4...Bg7 5.d5!? followed by e3-e4 but I can see why some would want to avoid it) 5.exd4 Bg7 (it's true that 5...d5 6.Qb3! is a Panov Attack line which is quite unpleasant for Black - he is virtually forced to give up the pawn with 6...Bg7) and now White has a few options:

a) 6.Nf3 0-0 (6...d5 7.Bg5 Ne4! is a line known to be fine for Black) 7 Be2 d5 is a Grünfeld, while 7 Bg5 transposes to 'b'

b)  6.Bg5 0-0 7.Nf3  can arise from  a King's Indian. Now 7...d5! is very complex but supposedly fine for Black, for example 8.Bxf6 Bxf6 9.Nxd5 Bg7 10.Ne3 Nc6 11.d5 Bxb2! 12.dxc6 Qa5+ 13.Ke2 Rd8 14.Qe1 Bc3 with a strong attack, Mirumian- Babula, Cesko 1998.

c) 6 d5!? looks unusual but is certainly playable.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2025. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge