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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack? (Read 52238 times)
Laramonet
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #51 - 10/20/11 at 12:42:59
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Hi,
6.Nf3 g6 is recommended in Dangerous Weapons: caro Kann.
  
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HoemberChess
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #50 - 01/02/09 at 15:33:58
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I mean 6.Nf3 g6--not 5..g6--, as I saw in an old Foxy video by Davies.
Not even mentioned. OR am I mistaken?


Bibs wrote on 01/02/09 at 14:50:21:
yeah, playing ...g6 is a good practical bet.

Sources - Arkell and Ian Rogers games.
And Pete Wells' caro book.

Very tricky for both sides, white particularly as is likely to play it less fequently otb.

  
as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Bibs
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #49 - 01/02/09 at 14:50:21
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yeah, playing ...g6 is a good practical bet.

Sources - Arkell and Ian Rogers games.
And Pete Wells' caro book.

Very tricky for both sides, white particularly as is likely to play it less fequently otb.
  
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HoemberChess
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #48 - 01/02/09 at 10:08:44
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I'd like to answer 5..Nc6 6.Nf3 with 6..g6 as Black, which actually is a normal line from of the English opening..
Anyone here playing this line as Black?
Any book recommendation?
  
as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #47 - 02/09/07 at 08:53:15
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Karpov's newish book on panov - Botvinnink should be able to illuminate on what Black should play.

GM Keith Arkell is still playing 5....g6 so it can't be so bad !

Only Mickey Adams seems to still give this line a go as  white out of top GMs, which suggests that it's relatively harmless.

Andrew Brett
  
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #46 - 02/08/07 at 16:20:30
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I'm pleased to hear that.

Baburin's book is one of the most instructive in my library...
  
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #45 - 02/02/07 at 23:07:30
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HgMan wrote on 06/03/06 at 14:17:18:
Baburin's book is fantastic--but I heard somewhere (on this forum somewhere, perhaps?) that Baburin was asking people not to buy his book, because of some royalty dispute with Batsford.  Nevertheless, it is a must-have for these kinds of positions, especially if you can find a secondhand copy.



Yes, I read this years ago somewhere, but I read subsequently that this dispute was settled.
  
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #44 - 02/02/07 at 13:13:33
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I guess where I'm coming from is that I just don't think that 60 years of chess theory are likely to topple on account of 4...e5.  Black is a tempo behind, right?  How can he play this way?


I don't think anyone is suggesting that you throw out any of your current sources on the PBA because of ...e5.  Smiley  It's just that it's an interesting try (although not new) that someone might want to try out in blitz or unimportant games.  Say you're under 1800 (or whatever) and you're repertoire is based on the Bronstein-Larsen variation, 3.e5 c5 and whatever dynamic Caro-Kann variations that are actively based, you might rather like 4...e5 against the PBA.  Anyway, I'm not advocating the variation and I won't be trying it.  I just feared some might miss out on an excellent chess source because of your "dubious source" label.  Now I believe you were just saying that it might be a dubious source of information on 4...e5.  I would just say it was incomplete, but intentionally so.  For what it's worth, I also think a well prepared player could score a lot of points with the PBA.


I agree and I take back "dubious source," which was a poorly chosen term because I really don't know whether this >source< is dubious or not.  It's the discussion of the line that I looked at there that I thought was dubious.
  
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #43 - 02/02/07 at 02:19:21
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I guess where I'm coming from is that I just don't think that 60 years of chess theory are likely to topple on account of 4...e5.  Black is a tempo behind, right?  How can he play this way?


I don't think anyone is suggesting that you throw out any of your current sources on the PBA because of ...e5.  Smiley  It's just that it's an interesting try (although not new) that someone might want to try out in blitz or unimportant games.  Say you're under 1800 (or whatever) and you're repertoire is based on the Bronstein-Larsen variation, 3.e5 c5 and whatever dynamic Caro-Kann variations that are actively based, you might rather like 4...e5 against the PBA.  Anyway, I'm not advocating the variation and I won't be trying it.  I just feared some might miss out on an excellent chess source because of your "dubious source" label.  Now I believe you were just saying that it might be a dubious source of information on 4...e5.  I would just say it was incomplete, but intentionally so.  For what it's worth, I also think a well prepared player could score a lot of points with the PBA.
  
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Markovich
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #42 - 02/02/07 at 01:59:13
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That rather dubious source considers only 5. dxe5?!.  Correct is 5. cxd5 and Black will have reason to regret 4...e5?! 


I have to agree with OstapBender that Monokroussos' (USCF rated 2352 and good enough for Chessbase to employ him to host a weekly show) blog is excellent and certainly shouldn't be considered a "rather dubious source".

5.cxd5 is a good move, but it's not clear that it's better than 5.dxe5 which should also give White some advantage.  By the way, ECO B (2nd Ed.) only mentions 5.dxe5.  I didn't spend too long looking at Markovich's 5.cxd5, but it looked like it may well end up transposing to 1.e4 c5 2.c3 d5 3.exd5 Qxd5 4.d4 cxd4 5.cxd4 e5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Nc3 Bb4, which is now known to be good for White but it's not a simple variation.

Addendum:  National master Jon Jacobs wrote an interesting an open-minded response that can be found if one click's on "comments" on Dennis's post on the PBA.  I'll just share this passage from Jacob's comment, "So on balance, this variant appears playable. (I say this without having checked any of Dennis' variations. But he's an awesome analyst and tends to be very thorough, as we know from his Chessbase lectures as well as this blog.)"   

Makes me wonder if Markovich (whose posts here usually seem well thought out and quite informative) has "The Chess Mind" confused with some other blog.


I said that about this source based only on its failure to consider 5. cxd5, which seems like a strong move to me.  Doesn't 5...Qxd5  6. Nf3 transpose into a line of the c3 Sicilian that's considered better for White?  But what do I know?  Maybe 5. dxe5 is even stronger.

I guess where I'm coming from is that I just don't think that 60 years of chess theory are likely to topple on account of 4...e5.  Black is a tempo behind, right?  How can he play this way?
  
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #41 - 02/01/07 at 17:47:07
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My tuppence worth on Panov against the Caro - if I were playing Black I´d be afraid of it, and probably go for the 2 Knights line (not the early ...e6) Then of course there is the whole endgame line after Qb3, when the books are fond of saying White is better, but if I had to win a game for my life I would not fancy this - in fact I think that ending is just drawn. 



  
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #40 - 01/31/07 at 21:16:17
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That rather dubious source considers only 5. dxe5?!.  Correct is 5. cxd5 and Black will have reason to regret 4...e5?! 


I have to agree with OstapBender that Monokroussos' (USCF rated 2352 and good enough for Chessbase to employ him to host a weekly show) blog is excellent and certainly shouldn't be considered a "rather dubious source".

5.cxd5 is a good move, but it's not clear that it's better than 5.dxe5 which should also give White some advantage.  By the way, ECO B (2nd Ed.) only mentions 5.dxe5.  I didn't spend too long looking at Markovich's 5.cxd5, but it looked like it may well end up transposing to 1.e4 c5 2.c3 d5 3.exd5 Qxd5 4.d4 cxd4 5.cxd4 e5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Nc3 Bb4, which is now known to be good for White but it's not a simple variation.

Addendum:  National master Jon Jacobs wrote an interesting an open-minded response that can be found if one click's on "comments" on Dennis's post on the PBA.  I'll just share this passage from Jacob's comment, "So on balance, this variant appears playable. (I say this without having checked any of Dennis' variations. But he's an awesome analyst and tends to be very thorough, as we know from his Chessbase lectures as well as this blog.)"  

Makes me wonder if Markovich (whose posts here usually seem well thought out and quite informative) has "The Chess Mind" confused with some other blog.
  
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #39 - 01/31/07 at 16:23:50
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I disagree with labeling Dennis Monokroussos's blog a "dubious source."  Besides, he made no great claims about the merits of his line:

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Should you try this? If you're over 1800 and in a tournament game with serious money on the line, probably not. But below that rating, and for almost anyone in blitz, I'd say to go ahead - I'm going to! Black has several important practical advantages: (1) familiarity, (2) the element of surprise, and (3) the fact that 1.e4 players don't generally have much specific knowledge or experience in dealing with the Albin.

On the other hand, 5.cxd5 does seem to make the whole idea look dubious for Black.  Dubious line, sure.  But still a great blog, IMO.

As for the merits of the Panov Attack as part of a 1.e4 repertoire, the opinions expressed in this thread weren't all negative.  There were at least a few posts advocating playing the white side of these IQP positions.
  
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #38 - 01/31/07 at 13:28:56
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For a rather different way to tackle the PBA, check out Monokroussos' "Meeting the Panov-Botvinnik Attack with the Albin Counter-Gambit" at his blog.  http://chessmind.powerblogs.com/


That rather dubious source considers only 5. dxe5?!.  Correct is 5. cxd5 and Black will have reason to regret 4...e5?!

Though not very much in fashion right now, the Panov-Botvinnik is a good system for White.  I hope those curious about it will pay no attention to what is said higher up in this thread about it being unsuitable for a 1. e4 repertoire.  What a load of baloney.
  
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #37 - 01/31/07 at 03:28:37
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For a rather different way to tackle the PBA, check out Monokroussos' "Meeting the Panov-Botvinnik Attack with the Albin Counter-Gambit" at his blog.  http://chessmind.powerblogs.com/
  
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