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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack? (Read 54202 times)
Markovich
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #21 - 06/01/06 at 15:28:17
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[quote author=Keano link=1066974206/15#18 date=1149164750]well let me try to write a variation:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e6 6.Nf3 Be7 7.cxd5 Nxd5 8.Bd3 /quote]

There is a vast theory on this, and also on 8. Bc4, but these positions are usually treated as arising from the Semi-Tarrasch.
  
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Keano
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #20 - 06/01/06 at 14:06:30
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Sorry! Of course Nc6 and Re1 are already in so it is something like: 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e6 6.Nf3 Be7 7.cxd5 Nxd5 8.Bd3 Nc6 9.0-0 0-0 10.Re1 (or 10.a3 as you say!?) Bf6 10.Be4 Nce7

thats in now?

Quote:
White secures his microscopical advantage right into a drawn endgame.
Now I am interested - is this the Qf3 line? I remember the classic good Knight v Bishop endgame could happen.

You say Black gets no winning chances, but how did Karpov manage to do it then  Huh

  
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #19 - 06/01/06 at 13:15:07
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hi keano,

somehow you forgot ...Nb8-c6 (and Rf1-e1 or a2-a3).

Black should wait with castling until White castles, he should play 8...Nc6 as 8...0-0?! 9.h4! might be very strong.
Generally Black´s position is very safe in these Be7 lines but he gets no winning chances. Except if White overpresses. All these lines are analysed very well and deep, White secures his microscopical advantage right into a drawn endgame.

tracke  Smiley
  
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Keano
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #18 - 06/01/06 at 12:25:50
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well let me try to write a variation:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e6 6.Nf3 Be7 7.cxd5 Nxd5 8.Bd3 0-0 (I suppose!? - or is Bf6 first more accurate) 9.0-0 Bf6 10.Be4 Nce7 11.Qd3  This seems like the old classical tabya position no? Then normal was 11..g6 12.Bh6 Bg7 and White was getting a nibble of an edge most times, then along came Karpov (I think!?) with 11...h6 and won some games.  

But I am confused now because I saw somewhere else a plan of Ng6!?? was mentioned instead, which to be honest I never even thought of - can White not take advantage of that system by pushing the h-pawn?

I´m sure the Soviets had all this worked out in the 70´s  Sad

Afterthought:  White can throw in Ne5 here too instead of Qd3 with idea of Qf3 - that one I remember
  
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #17 - 06/01/06 at 10:27:12
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Hello,

I was a bit suprised with what recommended in Khalifman book too. If interested in 6 ... Bb4, just the Nimzo positions are covered not 7Bd2 or 7.Qc2. Karpov has played the 6... Be7 too, one remember is game against Smyslov from the 70's, were he lost to a now standard d5 break.
                As far as I know, which is not much, in 6 ...Be7 line black is still holding out with Bf6 and Nc-e7 plan.

Bye John S
  
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Keano
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #16 - 05/30/06 at 07:58:30
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6...Be7 is a very old classical line - what is the current verdict of this line in the modern computer age? To me it seems a very sensible way to play, wasn´t this the way Karpov was playing in his 2nd renaissance?
  
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #15 - 05/29/06 at 15:51:25
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Martino wrote on 05/29/06 at 15:03:46:
Khalifman does indeed recommend 6...Be7, which I find puzzling as I assumed it was accepted now these IQP positions were easier for White to handle

He also treats the 6..Bb4 line. Though by transposition from the nimzo (the lines with an isolated pawn on d4), so you have to do a bit of leafing back and forth and compare positions. Not 100% sure if everything was covered though.
  
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #14 - 05/29/06 at 15:03:46
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Khalifman does indeed recommend 6...Be7, which I find puzzling as I assumed it was accepted now these IQP positions were easier for White to handle
  
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #13 - 05/29/06 at 06:43:42
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kalle99 wrote on 05/28/06 at 20:51:28:
I also think the Bb4 line for black is most solid. 

The line below is recommended  in Khalifmans "Opening for black according to Karpov".

1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 exd5 cxd5 4 c4 Nf6 5 Nc3 e6 6 Nf3 Be7 

But instead of 7 cxd5 white can play  7 c5!? and all of a sudden you are sitting in an anaconda grip.

http://media.putfile.com/Python-vs-Tiger        Cheesy

I think Botvinnik played this.







No doubt 7. c5 is an important try, but I think that theory for the last 20 years or so has tended to regard 7. c5 as =/unclear, and 7. cd as +=.  Which has contributed to 6...Bb4 having a better reputation than 6...Be7.  If "El Khalif" recommends 6...Be7 I am somewhat surprised.  I recall Karpov playing 6...Bb4 more than once, and it has the potential to transpose (after 7. Bd3 0-0 8. 0-0 dc 9. Bxc4 b6) to a line of the Nimzo that used to be a favourite of Karpov's.  On 6...Be7 7. cd does Khalifman recommend taking with the knight or the pawn?  It's not clear to me which one, if either, is considered more likely to equalise these days.   
  
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #12 - 05/28/06 at 23:58:02
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Well I'm not disparaging 6 ... Bb4, which morphs into a Nimzo, doesn't it?  Can't be bad.  I was just looking at the isolated pawn (my new bag!).  If Black wants to exchange bishop for knight, s/he loses a pieces that can attack d4 in exchange for one of White's important pieces helping the d4-d5 thrust.  If Black wants to hold onto the bishop, however, it strikes me that the bishop belongs on f6.  I'm not as familiar with the Nimzo theory as I'd like to be, so I can't really compare the two positions too effectively...
  
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kalle99
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #11 - 05/28/06 at 20:51:28
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I also think the Bb4 line for black is most solid. 

The line below is recommended  in Khalifmans "Opening for black according to Karpov".

1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 exd5 cxd5 4 c4 Nf6 5 Nc3 e6 6 Nf3 Be7 

But instead of 7 cxd5 white can play  7 c5!? and all of a sudden you are sitting in an anaconda grip.

http://media.putfile.com/Python-vs-Tiger        Cheesy

I think Botvinnik played this.



  
"I Often see in chess forums people asking : " What is the current status of that line ?"&&&&Its a good reasonable question,but who can claim that he knows the answer ?!&&&&Semko Semkov Januari 2008
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #10 - 05/26/06 at 21:00:08
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I recommend to investigate this long forgotten thread:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1095795916

Which introduces some little known interesting ideas in the 5-,Nc6 line:
(a) 6.Nf3 Be6 7.c5 g6 
(b) 6.Nf3 Be6 7.c5 Bg4 
(c) 6.Nf3 a6

These are nice ambitious alternatives to the drawish endgames so often reached after 6.Nf3 Bg4
  
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #9 - 05/26/06 at 14:54:58
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I'd be inclined to travel more familiar ground:

1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 exd5 cxd5 4 c4 Nf6 5 Nc3 e6 6 Nf3 Be7 7 cxd5 Nxd5

The catch here is that you need to study your IQP, but a good grasp of the position will generally put you in good stead.  White can mount a strong kingside attack, but if Black is familiar with this position, s/he's very sound and can take advantage of a White player who thinks the Panov-Botvinnik Attack is aggressive, but doesn't understand the nuances of playing with the isolated pawn...
  
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Keano
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #8 - 05/26/06 at 10:20:33
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MNb wrote on 01/19/04 at 18:07:08:
In the time I played the Scandinavian Marshall
Gambit more often than now, I had decent
results with 5...g6. My knowledge of the theory
is not really up-to-date, so is there any
strong refutational line for White?
At the other hand, via the Morra Gambit
Declined I quite often got 5...e6 positions
as White. I was alway very satisfied with my
attacking chances, as Black has problems
activating all his pieces.


I think the 5...g6 line is struggling against the Panov these days.
  
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Re: What to do against the Panov-Botvinnik Attack?
Reply #7 - 03/26/04 at 12:48:05
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Actually against

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. ed cd 4. c4 Nf6 5. nc3 Nc6 6. Bg5 I like 6...Qa5!? which is interesting

and after 5...Nc6 6. Nf3 I play 6...e6 and Bb4 (though not at the same time)
  
"When I am White, I am because I am White. When I am Black, I win because I am Bogolyubov" (?!) - Efim Bogolyubov, noted chess player and optimist.
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