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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Open Spanish (Read 11855 times)
IMJohnCox
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Re: Open Spanish
Reply #18 - 01/02/07 at 14:51:16
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Maybe try it with Fritz playing Black?!
  
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Re: Open Spanish
Reply #17 - 01/02/07 at 14:48:16
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Frankly wrote on 01/02/07 at 13:19:52:
Thanks - the Korchnoi line is the one cited in a footnote in the 14th Edition of Batsford Modern Chess Openings (although the game cited is de Firmian-Hellers 1989).

But, instead of 16Rad1, Fritz has 16 Nf6+!? which looks a bit scary for Black, although I have not come across a recorded game with it - save that I played against Fritz (set to an appropriate rating of course) and lost as Black.

i.e. 13Ne4 Be7 14. Be3 Nf5 15 Qc2 0-0 and then, anything but Rad1 (such as Nf6+).


I have found the following games with 16.Nf6+
Viktor the terrible defended it comfortably enough

[Event "Sarajevo"]
[Site "Sarajevo"]
[Date "1984.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Van der Wiel, John TH"]
[Black "Kortschnoj, Viktor"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C80"]
[WhiteElo "2515"]
[BlackElo "2635"]
[PlyCount "90"]
[EventDate "1984.03.??"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "13"]
[EventCountry "YUG"]
[EventCategory "12"]
[Source "ChessBase"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 b5 7. Bb3 d5 8. dxe5
Be6 9. Nbd2 Nc5 10. c3 d4 11. Bxe6 Nxe6 12. cxd4 Ncxd4 13. Ne4 Be7 14. Be3 Nf5
15. Qc2 O-O 16. Nf6+ Bxf6 17. Qxf5 Be7
18. Rad1 (18. Rfd1 Qc8 19. Rac1 (19. b3
c5 20. Qe4 Rb8 21. Ne1 Qb7 22. Qxb7 Rxb7 23. Rac1 Rc7 24. f4 g6 25. Nf3 c4 {
1/2-1/2 Thipsay,P (2475)-Prasad,D (2445)/Sakthi 1996/CBM 053}) (19. Qe4 c5 20.
a4 c4 21. h3 Rb8 22. axb5 axb5 23. Ra7 Bc5 24. Bxc5 Nxc5 25. Qd5 Nd3 26. Nd4
Nxb2 27. e6 Nxd1 28. exf7+ Kh8 29. Ne6 Ra8 30. Nxf8 Rxa7 31. Nd7 Ra1 32. Kh2
Ne3 33. fxe3 Rf1 34. Ne5 g6 35. Qd4 Qc7 36. g3 Kg7 37. Nxc4+ Kxf7 38. Qd5+ Kg7
39. Qxb5 Rf2+ 40. Kh1 Qxg3 {
0-1 Barendse,T (2206)-Ernst,S (2474)/Wijk aan Zee 2004/CBM 099}) 19... Rd8 (
19... c5 20. Qe4 Qc7 21. Ne1 Rfd8 22. f4 Rxd1 23. Rxd1 Rd8 24. Rd5 Qc6 25.
Rxd8+ Nxd8 26. Qxc6 Nxc6 27. Kf2 g5 28. Kf3 Kg7 29. Ke4 gxf4 30. Bxf4 Kg6 31.
Nc2 Nd8 32. g4 Ne6 33. Be3 Bg5 34. Bf2 h5 35. gxh5+ Kxh5 36. b3 Kg4 37. Ne1 Kh3
38. Kd5 c4 39. bxc4 bxc4 40. Kxc4 Kxh2 41. Nf3+ Kg2 42. Nxg5 Nxg5 43. Bh4 Nf3
44. Bf6 Kg3 45. a4 Kf4 46. Kd5 Kf5 47. a5 Kf4 48. Bh8 {
1/2-1/2 Morgado,J (2275)-Romero,L (2096)/Buenos Aires 2003/CBM 097}) 20. Rxd8+
Qxd8 21. Qe4 c5 22. b3 Ra7 23. h3 (23. g3 g6 24. Kg2 Kg7 25. h4 h5 26. Rc2 Rd7
(26... Rc7 27. Nd2 Rd7 28. Qc6 Nd4 29. Bxd4 Rxd4 30. Ne4 Rd1 31. Nxc5 Qd4 32.
e6 Bxc5 33. Rxc5 Rd2 34. Qf3 Qxc5 35. Qxf7+ Kh8 36. Qe8+ {
1/2-1/2 Zarnicki,P (2540)-Rosito,J (2420)/Pena City 1996/CBM 055 ext}) 27. Qc6
Rd1 28. Rd2 Rxd2 29. Nxd2 Nd4 30. Bxd4 cxd4 31. Ne4 d3 32. Nd6 f6 33. Qd5 Qg8
34. exf6+ Bxf6 35. Qxd3 Qe6 36. Ne4 Be7 37. Qd4+ Kh7 38. Nd2 Qc6+ 39. Qe4 Qd6
40. Nf1 Kg7 41. Ne3 Bf6 42. Qb7+ Kh6 43. Qf7 Qc6+ 44. Nd5 Bg7 45. Kh2 Qc2 46.
Ne7 Kh7 47. a3 a5 48. a4 bxa4 49. bxa4 Qe4 50. Kg1 Qe1+ 51. Kg2 Qe4+ 52. Kh2
Qc2 53. Qf4 Be5 54. Qf7+ Bg7 55. Qf4 Be5 56. Qe3 Bg7 57. Qb6 Qe4 58. Qd8 Qxa4
59. Qg8+ Kh6 60. Qf7 Qc2 61. Ng8+ Kh7 62. Nf6+ Kh6 63. Ng8+ {
1/2-1/2 Rodriguez Cespedes,A (2520)-Sorin,A (2505)/Matanzas 1995/CBM 048})
23... Qa8 24. Nd2 Qxe4 25. Nxe4 Rc7 26. f4 c4 27. bxc4 Rxc4 28. Rxc4 bxc4 29.
Kf2 Kf8 30. Ke2 Nc7 31. Bd2 Nd5 32. Nc3 Nb4 33. Ke3 Nc2+ 34. Ke4 Bb4 35. g4 Ke8
36. Kd5 Na3 37. Kd4 g6 38. Ne4 Nc2+ 39. Kxc4 Bxd2 40. Nxd2 Ne3+ 41. Kd4 Ng2 42.
Ke4 Ne1 43. Nb3 Nc2 44. a4 {
1-0 Bellin,R (2400)-Botterill,G (2365)/Swansea 1987/TD}) 18... Qc8 19. Nd2 (19.
Qe4 c5 20. h4 Ra7 21. Ng5 Nxg5 22. hxg5 Rd7 23. Rde1 Rfd8 24. e6 fxe6 25. Qxe6+
Kh8 26. Bf4 Bd6 27. Be3 Re7 28. Qxc8 Rxc8 29. Rd1 Be5 30. Bxc5 Rf7 31. b3 Rf5
32. Be3 Bf4 33. Bxf4 Rxf4 34. Rd6 a5 35. Rfd1 Kg8 36. g3 Rf5 37. f4 Rc2 38.
R1d2 Rfc5 39. Kg2 Kf7 40. g4 a4 41. bxa4 bxa4 42. Kg3 R5c3+ 43. Kh4 Rxd2 44.
Rxd2 Rf3 45. f5 Kf8 46. Rd8+ Kf7 47. Rh8 Rf2 48. a3 Rh2+ 49. Kg3 Ra2 50. Rxh7
Rxa3+ 51. Kf4 Ra1 52. g6+ Kg8 53. Kg5 a3 54. Rh3 a2 55. Rh2 Kf8 56. Re2 {
1-0 Slaby,J (2401)-Naranjo Moreno,A (2169)/Campillos 2005/CBM 104 ext}) 19...
Rd8 20. f4 c5 21. Qh3 Rd3 22. Ne4 Rxd1 23. Rxd1 Qc7 24. Nc3 Rd8 25. Nd5 Qb7 26.
Qf3 Kh8 27. Nxe7 Qxe7 28. Rxd8+ Qxd8 29. f5 Nd4 30. Qe4 Kg8 31. Kf1 g6 32. g4
Qc8 33. e6 gxf5 34. gxf5 Qc6 35. Qg4+ Kf8 36. Bh6+ Ke7 37. f6+ Kxf6 38. Bg5+
Ke5 39. exf7 Qh1+ 40. Kf2 Qxh2+ 41. Qg2 Qxg2+ 42. Kxg2 Ne6 43. Be7 c4 44. Kg3
a5 45. a3 Kf5 1/2-1/2




  
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Re: Open Spanish
Reply #16 - 01/02/07 at 14:38:46
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How not to play this line  !!

Black has to improve around move 13 with ....Qd5 otherwise it is very uncomfortable for him even when he should have played ....21 Rf7

[Event "Naestved"]
[Site "Naestved"]
[Date "1985.??.??"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Chandler, Murray G"]
[Black "Nunn, John DM"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C80"]
[WhiteElo "2525"]
[BlackElo "2600"]
[PlyCount "43"]
[EventDate "1985.09.??"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "11"]
[EventCountry "DEN"]
[EventCategory "13"]
[Source "ChessBase"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 b5 7. Bb3 d5 8. dxe5
Be6 9. Nbd2 Nc5 10. c3 d4 11. Bxe6 Nxe6 12. cxd4 Ncxd4 13. Ne4 Be7 14. Be3 Nf5
15. Qc2 O-O 16. Rad1 Nxe3 17. fxe3 Qc8 18. Nd4 Nxd4 19. exd4 Qe6 20. Ng3 f6 21.
Nf5 fxe5 ?????? 22. Qb3 1-0

  
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Frankly
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Re: Open Spanish
Reply #15 - 01/02/07 at 13:19:52
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Thanks - the Korchnoi line is the one cited in a footnote in the 14th Edition of Batsford Modern Chess Openings (although the game cited is de Firmian-Hellers 1989).

But, instead of 16Rad1, Fritz has 16 Nf6+!? which looks a bit scary for Black, although I have not come across a recorded game with it - save that I played against Fritz (set to an appropriate rating of course) and lost as Black.

i.e. 13Ne4 Be7 14. Be3 Nf5 15 Qc2 0-0 and then, anything but Rad1 (such as Nf6+).
  
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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: Open Spanish
Reply #14 - 01/02/07 at 12:43:48
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Ponomariov has found the way to neutralise Ng5 - see his game eg vMorozovich @ Biel 2004. Hard to believe he's improved on an original idea of Smyslov to defend.

13 Ne4 - Korchnoi solved that problem ages ago ! See Tal v Korchnoi  Rekyavik 1987 ! Tal won but not due to the opening !!

Finally as others have stated in this thread although Sokolov lost to Polgar, the opening went quite well !

Hope that helps !

Andrew
  
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What's happened to 13Ne4 in the Open Ruy?
Reply #13 - 01/02/07 at 11:41:24
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I like playing the open defence to the Ruy, and was interested to see that the boffins on this site appear to think that 9Nbd2 has been dampened somewhat of late. I would of course have no idea why. I looked at recent games on my Fritz database (which has not been updated from about 2004) to see when and how the 9Nbd2 line appears to have been dampened. What I found was the apparent disappearance of the apparently still mainly successful line:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6  3. Bb5 a6  4.Ba4 Nf6  5.0-0 Nxe4  6. d4 b5  7. Bb3 d5  8. dxe5 Be6  9.Nbd2 Nc5  10. c3 d4  11. Bxe6 Nxe6  12. cxd4 Ncxd4 13Ne4.

These days, the sharp Ng5 line seems for some reason to have become favoured by White. The line where Black ends up with 2 connected passed pawns for the Knight looks quite promising for Black, if a bit scary.

But most games I can find with 13 Ne4 look good for White. The reason I am so interested is that I do not like the 13Ne4 lines as Black.

What I would greatly appreciate is a bit of advice aimed at the relatively idiot-level on the following:

1. Why precisely is Black feeling better about 9Nbd2 these days?
2. Should one still play ...d4 after 10c3?
3. Why have the top dogs moved away from 13Ne4 (if they have)?

Thanking the helpful and patient amongst us in advance.
  
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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: Open Spanish
Reply #12 - 12/20/06 at 14:57:29
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Didn't Vallejo Pons play a few good games in this line at the Amber tourney. This opening could be due for a revival.

One historical footnote relating to Kasp v Kram.

Kram in the 2001 Botvinnink Memorial match played the open in one game and GK played 9 Be3 Bc5 10 Qd3

What was interesting is that at that time GK had almost eliminated the open as a defence following his Ng5 and Bc2 v Anand. But he wouldn't allow it against Kramnik !! (Who had been a second in that match)

I believe Kram played the open against Svidler at Dortmund in 2004 and again drew easily. Perhaps this is a Kramnik secret weapon !!??

I can't believe 9 c3 bc5 10 Qe2 is critical. I thought Anand neutralised effortlessly v Kamsky in a Candidates.

  
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Re: Open Spanish
Reply #11 - 12/20/06 at 14:26:44
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well after seeing the update on the Open, it is top-class in all respects ...except one - it still does not deal with 9.c3!? The view that this move can be dismissed with 9...Bc5 and hence it is hardly played now, is a very subjective one as (shock/horror) GM´s continue to play 9.c3 - Kevin Spraggett comes immediately to mind, and he does very well with it.

To my mind the line 9.c3 Bc5 can be met with 10.Qe2!? followed by Be3 - have a look at some old games and always watch out for the weakness of that c5 square. It really is not easy for Black.

So to sum up - 9.c3! remains and will continue to remain a headache for Black. (9.Nbd2 and 9.Be3 are not bad either)
  
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Re: Open Spanish
Reply #10 - 12/03/06 at 22:41:57
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I was hoping for a few more suggestions in the 'Missing Variations' thread before putting up a poll, so far there have only been 5 answers. Undecided
  
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Re: Open Spanish
Reply #9 - 12/03/06 at 20:47:39
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Hey there:

In the New-section of the forum, there is a topic "missing variations", since the beginning of november.
I posted my request for a better coverage of the open Spanish there, and posted a request for
support on the e4e5 forum. I  think only Mnb reacted to this post; alas he isnt a subscriber... Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Open Spanish
Reply #8 - 12/03/06 at 18:41:49
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 12/03/06 at 16:48:50:
I would also like to see more coverage of the Open - I will write a pleading email to Olivier immediately! Smiley


Yes please, especially an explanation of the subtleties surrounding the new mainline 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 b5 7. Bb3 d5 8. dxe5 Be6 9. Be3!? which has now taken over from 9.Nbd2 in popularity.

Tops Smiley
  

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Re: Open Spanish
Reply #7 - 12/03/06 at 16:48:50
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I would also like to see more coverage of the Open - I will write a pleading email to Olivier immediately! Smiley
  
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Re: Open Spanish
Reply #6 - 12/03/06 at 10:52:38
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Willempie wrote on 10/23/06 at 09:17:41:
An interesting one with Nbd2 from Essent. Dont be fooled by the result, up to move 40 black looks very much in the driving seat.
[Event "Hoogeveen"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2006.10.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Polgar, Judit"]
[Black "Sokolov, Ivan"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C83"]
[WhiteElo "2710"]
[BlackElo "2670"]
[PlyCount "95"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 b5 7. Bb3 d5 8. dxe5 Be6 9. Nbd2 Be7 10. c3 O-O 11. Bc2 f5 12. Nb3 Qd7 13. Nfd4 Nxd4 14. Nxd4 c5 15.Nxe6 Qxe6 16. f3 Ng5 17. a4 Rad8 18. axb5 axb5 19. Ra7 Rd7 20. Rxd7 Qxd7 21.Kh1 f4 22. b4 c4 23. Qd2 Ne6 24. Rd1 Nc7 25. Qf2 Qe6 26. Qd4 Qc6 27. Kg1 g6 28.Kf1 Bg5 29. Bb2 Ra8 30. Qd2 Ne6 31. Bb1 Rd8 32. Qe1 Qc7 33. h4 Be7 34. Bc1 Qc6 35. Qf2 Rf8 36. Bc2 Bd8 37. Qd2 Bxh4 38. Qxd5 Qb6 39. Qd2 Bg3 40. Qe2 Qa7 41.Be4 Kh8 42. Bd5 Ng7 43. e6 Qe7 44. Qe5 Qh4 45. Ke2 h5 46. Be4 Rg8 47. Rd7 Qh1 48. Bd2 1-0



After move 37.Dd2 Bologan say : and white should be better

and in Bologan - Timman (Barcelone ) 19.Ra7 c4 20.Be3!N white was in the driving seat! (Europe-Echcs)
  

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Re: Open Spanish
Reply #5 - 11/03/06 at 09:27:05
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Markovich wrote on 10/23/06 at 15:23:20:
I would assume that the reason for that is that for a long time, as you will know, 9. Nbd2 was considered to have "closed" the Open Spanish.

Even now at the top, I think the Open suffers a residual unpopularity from those relatively recent days.  But now that Black is rehabilitated in the 9. Nbd2 variation


I must be out of touch. What has been found for Black?
  
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Re: Open Spanish
Reply #4 - 10/23/06 at 15:23:20
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alumbrado wrote on 10/27/03 at 08:33:47:
I have noticed there is a bit of a hole in the coverage of the Open Defence in the Spanish e-book.

After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.dxe5 Be6, the e-book covers 9.Be3 and then 9.Nbd2 (where it mentions that 'this and 9.c3 are White's main moves'), but there does not seem to be any coverage of 9.c3 - which is traditionally seen as the main line, as I understand it!  Undecided

After 9.c3 Black can play the modest 9...Be7 or the more aggressive 9...Bc5 and after 10.Nbd2 0-0 11.Bc2 he can try the interesting Dilworth Attack with 11...Nxf2!? 12.Rxf2 f6! - the e-book does not cover either of these.  ???

The interesting variation with 9.Qe2 (planning Rd1 and c4) is also not covered.  Sad

Is there any chance this can be remedied some time?  I am sure there must be some noteworthy Open Spanish games being played somewhere ...


I would assume that the reason for that is that for a long time, as you will know, 9. Nbd2 was considered to have "closed" the Open Spanish. 
Even now at the top, I think the Open suffers a residual unpopularity from those relatively recent days.  But now that Black is rehabilitated in the 9. Nbd2 variation, it would be nice if Olivier Renet turned an update or two toward this system.

One critical question would be whether the Dilworth is = or +=.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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