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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Why isn't the Bird played more often? (Read 13894 times)
MNb
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Re: Why isn't the Bird played more often?
Reply #19 - 12/09/04 at 08:56:02
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1.f4 d5 2.b3 Nc6 should be answered with 3.e3. The idea of an early b3 is directed against a Black king's fianchetto. A Black bishop on g7 supports e7-e5, and that is why Picket(t) thinks 2.b3 more precise. But I do not think too high of the queen's fianchetto because of the rock solid setup with Bg4, c6 and e6.
  
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ralf
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Re: Why isn't the Bird played more often?
Reply #18 - 12/09/04 at 07:34:20
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Hi,
i feel there is a problem with that quick 1.f4 and 2.b3 approach. By the way, 1.f4 and 2. b3 is also a recomendation from Soltis in his book the "bird larsen attack".
The reasoning against it is taken from Oleinikov, Dimitrij: bird defense chessbase 2002.
It says, that leaving out e3 and Sf3 for a later moment gives black the oppurtunity to play an early d4, witch is good for him.
For example: 1.f4 d5 2.b3 Nc6 (taking d4) 3. Bb2 Bg4 4.Nf3 d4.  
If black do not adress d4 directly, the line 1.f4 an 2.b3 is perfect.
regards ralf


Quote:
I own a nice booklett by LM Picket(t) on the Bird of 1974. He recommends 1.f4 d5 (Nf6) 2.b3 indeed - White might thus also consider 1.b3 and 2.f4.
But also according to Picket(t) 1.f4 d5 2.b3 Nf6 3.Bb2 c6 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.e3 e6 6.Be2 Bd6 (or Bxf3 7.Bxf3 Nbd7) 7.o-o o-o 8.Ne5 Bxe2 9.Qxe2 Nbd7 leads to equality.

When playing the Dutch Iljin Zjenevsky, I am usually happy with my bishop on c8, as it supports e6-e5 by protecting the e6 and f5 squares. So I am not a big fan of the queenside fianchetto in the Dutch, as I think the queen's bishop rather useful on c8!

With colours reversed, I think the king's bishop on e2 lacks bite. Developing it to g2 is more ambitious, as White strives for control of the whole centre.
So Alumbrado might be right - I am obsessed by playing the Dutch Iljin-Zjenevsky against almost all. But not with colours reversed.

  
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Re: Why isn't the Bird played more often?
Reply #17 - 12/09/04 at 07:02:19
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Hi,
the game given shows that white didn't really grasp the BIRD.
Sorry, thats my opinion. What is the BIRD all about: It's e5!!!
So whenever black gets e5 in, he is more than just fine against the bird. There is also one famous game from Kasparov (with black and he is about 14 years old at that time) with the e5 setup against the bird, that he did win and that illustrates the idea perfect.
But back to the game. Nunn ist right Bg4 is a good move, because it attacks the defender of e5. I suggest, that white should play 6. Lb2 to take contoll over e5.
Then chances are equal again. (I believe Wink)
regards ralf

BIG BEN WROTE:

Hi,
    I tend to follow John Nunn's idea of d5 ... Nf6 ... Bg4 and take off on f3 which he said is dead equal .... here is a 15 minute game I played as a guest on the ICC

duckbreath (2515) - Guest [A03]
ICC 15 0 u Internet Chess Club, 13.05.2001

1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 Bg4 4.Be2 Nbd7 5.b3 c6 6.0-0 Bxf3 7.Rxf3 e5 8.fxe5 Nxe5 9.Rh3?! Bd6 10.d4 Ned7 11.Nd2 Qe7 12.c4 0-0-0 13.Bd3 g5 14.Nf1 h5 15.cxd5 cxd5 16.Bd2 g4 17.Rh4 Ne4 18.Qe1 f5 19.Ba5 Rdf8 20.Rc1+ Kb8 21.g3 Re8 22.Bb5 Reg8 23.Nd2 Nf8 24.Qf1 Qe6 25.Nxe4 fxe4 26.Bd8 Ng6 27.Qf6 Qxf6 28.Bxf6 Rh7 29.Rf1 Rf8 30.a4 Nxh4 31.Bxh4 Rxf1+ 32.Kxf1 Kc7 33.Kg2 Be7 34.Bxe7 Rxe7 35.a5 Kd8 36.a6 bxa6 37.Bc6 Rd7 38.Bxd7 Kxd7 39.Kf2 Kc6 40.Ke2 Kb5 41.Kd2 Kb4 42.Kc2 a5 43.Kb2 a4 44.bxa4 Kxa4 45.Kc2 Kb4 46.Kb2 Kc4 47.Ka3 Kd3 48.Kb4 Kxe3 49.Kc5 White resigns 0-1

Regards

  
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MNb
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Re: Why isn't the Bird played more often?
Reply #16 - 12/09/04 at 05:48:49
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Alumbrado: as so many addicts I do not want to be cured! Especially not as I continue to win with that inferior Black setup.

Nexirae: In my previous post I was comparing three White systems in the Bird:
1. the queen's fianchetto, against which I gave an equalizing line;
2. the Iljin-Zjenevsky, which is characterized by Be2 and d3 and is not active enough for White IMO;
3. the Leningrad, which in the Bird is probably the only way to play for an advantage.
So indeed: why play that bishop to e2? On g2 it is more active.
Just like the Dutch, in the Bird Black can avoid the pin Bb5 by delaying c7-c5.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Why isn't the Bird played more often?
Reply #15 - 12/09/04 at 05:07:34
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Quote:
So Alumbrado might be right - I am obsessed by playing the Dutch Iljin-Zjenevsky against almost all.


I am glad, MNb, that you are finally admitting to your addiction.  It is the first stage in finding a cure ...  Roll Eyes
  
If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
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Re: Why isn't the Bird played more often?
Reply #14 - 12/08/04 at 21:36:48
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Why put the bishop on e2?  More often the king's bishop is quite useful on d3 or b5 (reversing a Nimzo if black obliges with c5 and d5!).  I agree that e2 is a passive square, and more often than not the bishop is better suited somewhere else.  Who said that Be2 was a requirement?


Undecided
NeX iRae
  
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MNb
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Re: Why isn't the Bird played more often?
Reply #13 - 12/08/04 at 21:09:49
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I own a nice booklett by LM Picket(t) on the Bird of 1974. He recommends 1.f4 d5 (Nf6) 2.b3 indeed - White might thus also consider 1.b3 and 2.f4.
But also according to Picket(t) 1.f4 d5 2.b3 Nf6 3.Bb2 c6 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.e3 e6 6.Be2 Bd6 (or Bxf3 7.Bxf3 Nbd7) 7.o-o o-o 8.Ne5 Bxe2 9.Qxe2 Nbd7 leads to equality.

When playing the Dutch Iljin Zjenevsky, I am usually happy with my bishop on c8, as it supports e6-e5 by protecting the e6 and f5 squares. So I am not a big fan of the queenside fianchetto in the Dutch, as I think the queen's bishop rather useful on c8!

With colours reversed, I think the king's bishop on e2 lacks bite. Developing it to g2 is more ambitious, as White strives for control of the whole centre.
So Alumbrado might be right - I am obsessed by playing the Dutch Iljin-Zjenevsky against almost all. But not with colours reversed.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Re: Why isn't the Bird played more often?
Reply #12 - 12/08/04 at 20:06:17
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Why insist on a reversed Leningrad?  The thing that always annoyed me about the Dutch Defense is that the queen's bishop would be useless for a long, long time.  Therefore, I considered the Bird the natural improvement, using the extra tempo to get that bishop in the game. 

A reversed Leningrad has the same fault it seems to me; the stonewalls have the problem as well.

From the black side of experimenting, I always found any attempt to play a Dutch with b6 fails horribly after white's e4 break.  However, in the Bird, it is much, much harder for the same break (provided you don't mind f4 e5). 

NeX iRae
  
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Re: Why isn't the Bird played more often?
Reply #11 - 12/08/04 at 02:18:41
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Quote:
In trying to organize my Bird repertoire, I came across an interesting response to the 3 ... Bg4 line that warrants some consideration.  Against Martin Voigt in 2000, Henrik Danielsen (as White) played:

1 f4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 g3 Bg4 4 Bg2 Nbd7 5 c4 c6 6 Ne5!? Bh5 {Bf5 seems weaker since it doesn't put pressure on e2} 7 cxd5 cxd5 8 Qb3 Qc7 9 Nc3 e6 and White proceeded to claim a strong advantage that he converted into a win.  I'm sure there are alternatives here, but 6 Ne5 looks persuasive...


Hi,
     I did mean against 1 f4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 e3 ... sorry I did not make myself clear  Smiley

Regards
  
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Re: Why isn't the Bird played more often?
Reply #10 - 12/07/04 at 21:39:23
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Indeed!  Though White looks more aggressive and the knight more firmly planted on e5 with the pawn on f4.  The bishop on g4 looks awkward and has to move in either position.  I suppose Black can take on f3 immediately, but I can't see how this is worthwhile.  Black gives up the bishop pair for very little and White can mount considerable pressure on d5.
  
"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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MNb
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Re: Why isn't the Bird played more often?
Reply #9 - 12/07/04 at 21:31:44
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This idea is also known in the Reti: 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 d5  3.Bg2 Bg4 4.c4 c6 5.cxd5 cxd5 6.Ne5 +-Smyslov-Darga, Interzonale Amsterdam,1964.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Why isn't the Bird played more often?
Reply #8 - 12/07/04 at 21:12:24
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Quote:
Hi,
    I tend to follow John Nunn's idea of d5 ... Nf6 ... Bg4 and take off on f3 which he said is dead equal .... here is a 15 minute game I played as a guest on the ICC

duckbreath (2515) - Guest [A03]
ICC 15 0 u Internet Chess Club, 13.05.2001

1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 Bg4 4.Be2 Nbd7 5.b3 c6 6.0-0 Bxf3 7.Rxf3 e5 8.fxe5 Nxe5 9.Rh3?! Bd6 10.d4 Ned7 11.Nd2 Qe7 12.c4 0-0-0 13.Bd3 g5 14.Nf1 h5 15.cxd5 cxd5 16.Bd2 g4 17.Rh4 Ne4 18.Qe1 f5 19.Ba5 Rdf8 20.Rc1+ Kb8 21.g3 Re8 22.Bb5 Reg8 23.Nd2 Nf8 24.Qf1 Qe6 25.Nxe4 fxe4 26.Bd8 Ng6 27.Qf6 Qxf6 28.Bxf6 Rh7 29.Rf1 Rf8 30.a4 Nxh4 31.Bxh4 Rxf1+ 32.Kxf1 Kc7 33.Kg2 Be7 34.Bxe7 Rxe7 35.a5 Kd8 36.a6 bxa6 37.Bc6 Rd7 38.Bxd7 Kxd7 39.Kf2 Kc6 40.Ke2 Kb5 41.Kd2 Kb4 42.Kc2 a5 43.Kb2 a4 44.bxa4 Kxa4 45.Kc2 Kb4 46.Kb2 Kc4 47.Ka3 Kd3 48.Kb4 Kxe3 49.Kc5 White resigns 0-1

Regards



In trying to organize my Bird repertoire, I came across an interesting response to the 3 ... Bg4 line that warrants some consideration.  Against Martin Voigt in 2000, Henrik Danielsen (as White) played:

1 f4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 g3 Bg4 4 Bg2 Nbd7 5 c4 c6 6 Ne5!? Bh5 {Bf5 seems weaker since it doesn't put pressure on e2} 7 cxd5 cxd5 8 Qb3 Qc7 9 Nc3 e6 and White proceeded to claim a strong advantage that he converted into a win.  I'm sure there are alternatives here, but 6 Ne5 looks persuasive...
  
"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Why isn't the Bird played more often?
Reply #7 - 11/29/04 at 20:21:42
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Just in case anyone is interested, the ICCF has posted a Bird thematic to begin in February 2005 (deadline for registration is 15 December 2004).  I believe the only required move is 1 f4.  After that, it's all fair game...
  
"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Why isn't the Bird played more often?
Reply #6 - 11/18/04 at 22:17:09
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With all due respect to John Nunn, I'm not convinced that Black's Bxf3 leads to dead equality.   Undecided  Frankly, it strikes me that Black's making quite a concession in giving up his light-squared bishop when White can put his on the long diagonal.  While that strategy may have the desired effect of unsettling White's standard development, surely it's too early to determine how valuable or effective the bishop for knight exchange really is.  Thoughts?

Thanks for sharing your game: White looks awful, and Black just rolls.
A number of earlier comments in this thread have suggested that White play a Reversed Leningrad, rather than b3.  Doesn't this make the Bg4 plan more difficult, especially if White is going to actively fight for space on the kingside?
  
"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Why isn't the Bird played more often?
Reply #5 - 11/11/04 at 15:42:18
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Hi,
     I tend to follow John Nunn's idea of d5 ... Nf6 ... Bg4 and take off on f3 which he said is dead equal .... here is a 15 minute game I played as a guest on the ICC

duckbreath (2515) - Guest [A03]
ICC 15 0 u Internet Chess Club, 13.05.2001

1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 Bg4 4.Be2 Nbd7 5.b3 c6 6.0-0 Bxf3 7.Rxf3 e5 8.fxe5 Nxe5 9.Rh3?! Bd6 10.d4 Ned7 11.Nd2 Qe7 12.c4 0-0-0 13.Bd3 g5 14.Nf1 h5 15.cxd5 cxd5 16.Bd2 g4 17.Rh4 Ne4 18.Qe1 f5 19.Ba5 Rdf8 20.Rc1+ Kb8 21.g3 Re8 22.Bb5 Reg8 23.Nd2 Nf8 24.Qf1 Qe6 25.Nxe4 fxe4 26.Bd8 Ng6 27.Qf6 Qxf6 28.Bxf6 Rh7 29.Rf1 Rf8 30.a4 Nxh4 31.Bxh4 Rxf1+ 32.Kxf1 Kc7 33.Kg2 Be7 34.Bxe7 Rxe7 35.a5 Kd8 36.a6 bxa6 37.Bc6 Rd7 38.Bxd7 Kxd7 39.Kf2 Kc6 40.Ke2 Kb5 41.Kd2 Kb4 42.Kc2 a5 43.Kb2 a4 44.bxa4 Kxa4 45.Kc2 Kb4 46.Kb2 Kc4 47.Ka3 Kd3 48.Kb4 Kxe3 49.Kc5 White resigns 0-1

Regards
  
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