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Normal Topic That pawn on c4 (Read 3834 times)
MNb
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Re: That pawn on c4
Reply #6 - 08/07/04 at 09:32:39
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If you compare The Argentinian Attack in the Pirc (f3, Be3, Qd2, o-o-o) with the Sämisch Variation, the pawn on c4 is in many variations a weakness, which also costs an important tempo.
  

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Re: That pawn on c4
Reply #5 - 12/16/03 at 07:59:02
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I think that c4 makes a big difference to the character of the positions. With c4 White is usually aiming for a stable spatial advantage and a gradual Queenside push, while Black generally counter-attacks on the Kingside with f5 and a pawn storm.

Without c4 White tends to play a more attacking game, with a swift attack often involving e5 and/or Queenside castling, while Black takes on a more defensive posture and then tries to counterattack, generally on the Queenside.

Of course this is very general, and only really applies to the Modern, the Pirc having a slightly different character, but I don't play the pure Pirc so I can't really comment.

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Re: That pawn on c4
Reply #4 - 12/15/03 at 19:57:25
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The pawn on c4 is definitely helpful as it aids in stopping both d5 and possibly attacking blasting open the queenside by pushing the a and b-pawns. I don't even think Black should have to worry about theory when playing against the Pirc g3 system.
  
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Re: That pawn on c4
Reply #3 - 12/15/03 at 03:22:23
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I personally believe that the main difference between the c4 pawn (KID) and the f4 pawn (Pirc) for white, is that makes clear where white should attack. In KID, white attacks the queenside and also the c4 pawn is a very good unit to undermine the centre when black attacks the King side. On the other hand, in Pirc the f4 pawn can be exchanged with the g6 pawn and the open f-line can be used for a ferocious attack on the king side.
  
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Re: That pawn on c4
Reply #2 - 12/02/03 at 08:12:59
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I think only Caissa herself knows the answer to this question ...

Generally speaking, the pawn on c4 means White has more space and central control in the KID than in the Pirc.  This is especially important in lines where Black plays ...e7-e5 and White closes the centre with d4-d5.  In the Pirc White will sometimes end up wasting time moving his knight on c3 before pushing his c-pawn.  Meanwhile, Black's attack on the other side of the board rumbles on ...

On the other hand, having c2-c4 in means the d4 square is more of a weakness, as White can never defend it with c2-c3.

The pawn also gets a bit in the way of the light-squared bishop. The moves Bf1-c4 and Bf1-b5 crop up sometimes in the Pirc.  In fact, in the some of the main lines, establishing a bishop on the a2-g8 diagonal is a definite goal for White. The option of responding to ...Nc6 with Bb5 is a common way of fighting for control of the centre, especially in the Modern.  Naturally, these moves are rather less common in the King's Indian!

Last but not least, c2-c4 takes up a move which could be used to develop a piece!  The most obvious contrast, in my view, comes from a compariaon between the Four Pawns' Attack in the KID and the Austrian Attack in the Pirc.

After 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 Black can play 5...c5 but it can get razor sharp after 6.Bb5+ (clearly not an option in the KID) 6...Bd7 7.e5!?.  But after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f4 0-0 6.Nf3 c5 is seen as a very reliable move.  This is not to say that White can't try for an advantage in the Four Pawns or that the play doesn't get sharp sometimes - just that it is not quite so knife-edge as the line of the Austrian I have referred to.  The main reason for this, is that White is further ahead with his development in the Austrian Attack.

Really though, it is a case of swings and roundabouts, and it is largely a matter of taste - for both sides.

In a sense it is similar to the debate in (eg) the Kan Sicilian (1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6) when White has the option of going for a Maroczy Bind setup with (eg) 5.Bd3 Qc7 6.0-0 Nf6 7.Qe2 d6 8.c4, or of developing 'normally' with 5.Nc3 etc.  Both approaches have their fans, but I don't think anybody can really say that one is objectively stronger than the other.
  

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Re: That pawn on c4
Reply #1 - 12/01/03 at 19:14:36
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That's an interesting question.  Another way to put it is:  Which is sounder the King's Indian or Pirc?  At one time I'm sure the former was considered so, but now I'd say the latter may be less risky.   1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Nc3 is a move order recommended (but not invented) by GM Summerscale in his book, "A killer chess opening repertoire".  After 3...d5 (as you pointed out Black has to be ready to play Pirc positions after 3...d6) he recommends playing the Barry Attack with 4.Bf4.
  
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That pawn on c4
12/01/03 at 15:58:06
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In these King fianchetto openings, does white benefit from the pawn on c4?  I was thinking: does white have more of an advantage in a Pirc/Modern or in the KID?  At this stage, I'm unable to decipher what the potential differences could be to benefit or hurt white. 

Perhaps white could try d4 Nf6 Nf3 g6 Nc3!? and attempt to transpose back into Pirc lines...(of course one should know the opponent is a KID player, otherwise Nf3 may not be as good as allowing a Nimzo/QID.)

Any thoughts?

NeX iRae
  
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