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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Hunting Elephants (Read 9914 times)
CraigEvans
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Re: Hunting Elephants
Reply #28 - 11/17/05 at 04:29:36
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The fact that the article focuses on 3.exd5 is because this has been shown to be the critical test of the gambit and, as such, deserved more coverage. 3.Nxe5 is certainly no refutation, and the only advantage I can see is that black will probably face this line less than the other, so may not be as prepared for it.

As for your move 7...Nc6, the only game I'm aware of turned out well for black after 8.Bd5?! - I'll check my databases and the chesslive database when I get home and have a look, but it's clear that black has no problems here (7...Be6 and 7...g6 are also okay for black).
  

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Alex Wu
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Re: Hunting Elephants
Reply #27 - 11/17/05 at 02:11:00
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This is interesting, and yes, I have finished reading your link.  It seems very focused on exd5, however.  If black were not to play g6!? and instead something like Nc6, how would I respond.  The threat of Nxe5, Nd4, and Nb4 is annoying.  What should I do?  I'm not sure if I want to lose a tempo by pinning the knight and giving up the threat on the pawn at f7, that pin doesn't seem to do anything, either.  You're really fast in responding, thanks!
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: Hunting Elephants
Reply #26 - 11/16/05 at 07:29:26
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As mentioned earlier on the thread Alex, there is an article by Tim Harding on chesscafe.com about the Elephant, so that may be a good point to start to get some preparation on the Elephant done.

I'll try to address a few of your questions here (without a board, so I could be talking nonsense), however.

The position after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d5 3.Nxe5 is an interesting one. The first thing to note is that white can (and should) play 3...dxe4 here (I'm not sure whether you meant this instead of Bd6, since 3...Bd6 4.Nc4?? dxc4 and 4.Bc4?? dxc4 look like fantastic ways of blundering a piece to me. Therefore 3...dxe4 4.Bc4 and then black should play 4...Qg5!? with wild play. The alternative (which, actually, you were probably referring to) is 4.d4 dxe4 5.Bc4 when 5...Bxe5 6.Qh5 Qe7 7.Qxe5 (or 7.dxe5 g6!?, which needs further tests) Qxe5 8.dxe5 Nc6, which is another murky position where white probably has an edge, but little more.

Of course, if black is a psycho, he could choose to meet 4.d4 with 4...Ne7 5.exd5 c6 6.dxc6 O-O!? - I'm sure black has nowhere enough compensation for the material, but it looks fun to me. That's what gambit chess is all about.
  

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Alex Wu
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Re: Hunting Elephants
Reply #25 - 11/15/05 at 23:45:42
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I am an eighteen hundred ranked USCF player.  My opponent (black) is about the same ranking, and plays the Elephant.  My disposition is to play Nxe5, so may we discuss this line?  He plays Bd6, what is the best move for white?  I have seen Bc4, and Nc4, but what are the lines for these, and does white have an advantage?  I believe that Bc4 is countered in the line - ... Bxe5, Qh5 Qe7, dxe5 Be6.
According to a previous post, Bxe6 Qxe6, Be3 is said to be advantageous.  In what way is this advantage, I like the endgame outlook, but would I do Nc3 next?  Is the black pawn on e4 going to be lost?  and what side should I castle on?  In regard to Nc4, why is the bishop taken?  The Knight is the only developed white piece, and taking the bishop loses tempo.  Can anyone explain this line?  If Black takes the knight with the pawn, do I play d5?  Need this help pretty quickly, e-mail me if you could answer, several black responses and white counters would be appreciated.  I got some Elephants to trample Wink  I know that you all have more experience than I do, I haven't seen this a lot.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Hunting Elephants
Reply #24 - 08/21/05 at 21:31:46
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Quote:
Recently a friend of mine and me were talking about his "Modernes Skandinavisch" (Modern Scandinavian) by Mathias
Wahls. Wahls states there that to play the Scandinavian, black needs to have a certain level of technique, if this is not the case, he should perhaps play the Elephant gambit.
Out of this joke, we started to play some blitz games with the Elephant, and I won all with black.
Since then, I also won some nice internet games with it. The lines discussed here also don't look that threatening for black. So perhaps the Elephant could also be used in tournament games as a surprise weapon?! (my elo is between 2200 and 2250)


Well it certainly surprised  IM Sakelsek,T (2425), and it is reputed that GM Paul Motwani said that he would sooner play The Elephant Gambit than the Latvian Gambit. That is a sort of semi endorsement I guess.

Toppy  Grin   
  

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Re: Hunting Elephants
Reply #23 - 08/21/05 at 20:33:28
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Recently a friend of mine and me were talking about his "Modernes Skandinavisch" (Modern Scandinavian) by Mathias
Wahls. Wahls states there that to play the Scandinavian, black needs to have a certain level of technique, if this is not the case, he should perhaps play the Elephant gambit.
Out of this joke, we started to play some blitz games with the Elephant, and I won all with black.
Since then, I also won some nice internet games with it. The lines discussed here also don't look that threatening for black. So perhaps the Elephant could also be used in tournament games as a surprise weapon?! (my elo is between 2200 and 2250)
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Hunting Elephants
Reply #22 - 12/23/04 at 19:49:47
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I am not aware of these other sources such as Kaissiber and what not, and I'm a bit uneasy about giving away any of Corbin's secret's.  Grin

Just to clarify the issue though, I do not play the Elephant Gambit, however, from the other side of the board I am not completely sure that I agree with NCO's evaluation that 9.Nc3 is a comfortable advantage for White.

Here are a few sample lines that I have looked at which highlight my concerns:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d5 3. exd5 Bd6 4. d4 e4 5. Ne5 Nf6 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8.Nxc6 Qb6 9. Nc3 Nxc6 10. d5 O-O 11. Bxc6 [11. dxc6?! 6 Be5 (11... Bb4 is also interesting) 11...Ba6!? (This move commits Black to heavy sacrifices, but at the same time White's King is trapped in the center and it is not clear how he can escape the danger zone safely) 12. Na4 [Not the most obvious but perhaps the critical move, alternatively: 12. Bxa8 Rxa8 13. Qd2 Rc8 14. a3 e3!15. fxe3 Be5 and White is virtually in zugzwang] 12... Qc7 13. Bxa8 Rxa8 14. Bd2 [14. Bg5 Qa5+ 15. Nc3 Ba3 16. Bc1 Rd8 Looks like something White should avoid] 14... Nxd5 15. Nc3 Nf6 16.Bg5 [16.a4!? Rd8!? 17.Nb5 Bxb5 18.ab5 e3! 19.fe3 Bxh2 looks unclear] Be5 17.Bxf6 gf6 18.Nd5 Qc5 Also looks unclear.

The above analysis is not meant to be exhaustive or bulletproof, but only to show that White's task is not as easy as NCO may have us believe. Personally I think that White has much better chances of a safe edge with the unassuming 8.Be2!?, but more about that later.

Thoughts?

Top  Grin
« Last Edit: 12/23/04 at 21:22:37 by TopNotch »  

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Dragonslayer
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Re: Hunting Elephants
Reply #21 - 12/21/04 at 14:29:12
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In the line 3.exd5 Bd6 4.d4 e4 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.Nc3 Nbd7 7.Bf4 Qe7 8.Bb5 Corbin won a game at the 1996 olympiad with 8...a6 but chose 8...0-0 against Kotronias at the 2000 olympiad and lost after 9.Bxd7 (Watson/Schiller gave 9.Nxd7) Nxd7 10.Nxd7 Bxd7 11.Bxd6 Qxd6 12.0-0 with a nasty endgame for Black.

I would prefer 7...0-0 intending Nb6. If White prevents this  with 8.Nxd7 then after Qxd7 9.Bxd6 Qxd6 Black still has a knight which improves his chances in the endgame (play against d5 is key)

The gambit line with 6.Bb5+ c6 was first seen in Shaw-Hebden, East Kilbride 1995. White played 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Be2? and Black won.
Gary Lane argued in issue 2 of the German magazine Kaissiber that the critical line is 8.Nxc6 Qb6 9.Nc3 (later given in NCO)

Lane analyzes 9...Nxc6 and 9...Bd7 and prefers White in both cases. The piece is from 1997 and Rogers writes in the same issue that he has an improvement over Lane's analysis. I have one game in my database with Rogers losing a corr. game from 1996 and another with David Flude winning an email game from 1998 but White missed a clear advantage in that game.
So now I wonder what it is that Rogers and Corbin has in this line.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Hunting Elephants
Reply #20 - 12/20/04 at 19:42:46
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I did find a few games of 'Mad Hacker' Corbin's on databases last week while contemplating my above post on the Elephant. As the post implies I wondered what, if this game represented 'home prep', Corbin's idea might have been after 9 Nc3 (9 ...Nc6 10 d5).
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Hunting Elephants
Reply #19 - 12/20/04 at 19:28:32
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A Fide Master from Barbados by the name of Philip Corbin plays this Elephant Gambit stuff all the time with pretty good practical success.  Grin

I think Corbin A.K.A The Mad Hacker, is probably one of the Gambit's leading practitioners. Take a look at what he did to this unsuspecting Slovenian IM at the recently concluded Olympiad in Mallorca, Spain:

[Event "36th Olympiad"]
[Site "Calvia ESP"]
[Date "2004.??.??"]
[White "Sakelsek,T"]
[Black "Corbin,P"]
[Round "1"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2425"]
[BlackElo "2242"]
[ECO "C40"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d5 3. exd5 Bd6 4. d4 e4 5. Ne5
Nf6 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Nxc6 Qb6 9. c4 [9.Nc3 could do with a practical test.]
Nxc6 10. d5 O-O 11. Bxc6 Ng4 12. Qe2 f5  Undecided [Can this really be sound?, it seems to defy the laws of physics somehow LOL]  13. Bxa8 f4 14. f3 Ne5 15. Nc3 exf3 16. gxf3 Bf5 17. Ne4 Bb4+ 18. Kd1 Qd4+ 19. Kc2 Nxf3 20. Rd1 Bxe4+ 21. Kb3 Rb8 22. Bc6 Bd2+ 23. Bb5 Rxb5+ 24. cxb5 Qb4#  0-1

Gruesome wasn't it, even FRITZ would be envious. I mean it isnt every day u get to actually deliver mate to a titled player in under 30 moves, and at an Olympiad no less. Quite an ad for this dubious gambit don't ya think. Grin

PostScript: I have it on good authority that this was all home prep.......and ohh yeah.....forget looking in the Databases for Corbin's Elephant games, most aren't there. Sorry  Cry

 
  

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Re: Hunting Elephants
Reply #18 - 12/20/04 at 09:35:27
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Peter Leisebein is a strong German corr. player, with interest in all kinds of gambits. He applies them on high level, often with success.
  

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Re: Hunting Elephants
Reply #17 - 12/20/04 at 08:07:06
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Chess Base Magazine is currently running a series of articles on the Elephant by Peter Leisebein (a new name to me ...), starting in CBM 102.  Not really my bag, so I won't comment on it too much other than to say that it does look quite interesting ... on the other hand the two articles so far only look at 3.Nxe5 so he hasn't got round to the 3.exd5 lines yet ...
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Hunting Elephants
Reply #16 - 12/14/04 at 05:26:29
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I too once dabbled in the Elephant, and I've got Rogers' 1994 pamphlet, though not the book by Jensen, Purser & Pape. (According to Dave Regis, the Basman item was a 'superficial' audio tape.)

At the time of Rogers' pamphlet, the refutation, given in the Watson & Schiller Big Book of Busts, was meant to be 3 ed Bd6 4 d4 e4 5 Ne5 Nf6 6 Nc3 Nbd7!? (6 ...0-0?! 7 Bg5 and R. explains that Black will acquire doubled f-pawns with White's KB still on the board) 7 Bf4 Qe7 and now 8 Bb5 (R. gives only 8 Nd7? Bf4).

In a recent web article, however, Schiller says that this bust was itself 'superficial' (he doesn't say why), and recommends instead the NCO suggestion (p. 297) 6 Bb5 Bd7 (6 ...c6 7 dc 0-0 [7 ...bc 8 Nc6 Qb6 9 Nc3!] 8 cb Bb7 9 Nc3 -- NCO; 6 ...Nbd7 7 Bg5, or 7 0-0, intending c4 -- Schiller) 7 Nd7 Nbd7 and now two lines are given as good for White: (1) 8 c4 a6 9 Ba4 b5 10 cb Nd5 11 Nc3! (not in R.) Nc3 12 bc 0-0 13 Qe2; and (2) 8 0-0 a6 (S. also gives 8 ...Nd5 9 Nd2!? f5? 10 Ne4!, and 8 ...0-0 9 c4) 9 Bd7 Qd7 10 c4 0-0 (10 ...0-0-0 11 Nc3) 11 Nc3 b5 12 Bg5. S. continues this last line: 12 ...b4 13 Ne2 Ng4!? 14 h3 Nh2 15 c5 Nf1 (15 ...Nf3 16 gf Qh3 17 cd ef 18 Nf4) 16 cd f6 17 Bc1 and Black is 'short of compensation'.

Thoughts?
  
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Re: Hunting Elephants
Reply #15 - 12/13/04 at 03:34:58
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Your wish is my command ... the post (and the pic) is gone.  8)
  

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Re: Hunting Elephants
Reply #14 - 12/11/04 at 11:18:01
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HEY! If someone is going to remove the post with the picture, then please remove the entire post! I no longer think this line kills the EG  Wink. Instead of 17.- Qxd5 black should consider 17.- Nf6. A possible line (that retrieves the missing pawn) could be:


1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d5 3.exd5 Bd6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Bb5+ Bd7 6.Bxd7+ Nbxd7 7.0-0 0-0 8.d4 e4 9.Ng5 Re8 10.Re1 h6 11.Ngxe4 Nxe4 12.Nxe4 Bxh2+ 13.Kxh2 Qh4+ 14.Kg1 Rxe4 15.Rxe4 Qxe4 16.c4 b5 17.cxb5 Nf6 18.Be3 Nxd5 19.Qe2 Re8 20.Rc1 Re6 21.Qc2 Qg4 22.Qd3 Rg6 23.Qf1 Qe4 24.Re1 Nxe3 25.fxe3 f5 26.Re2 Qd3 27.Qf3 Qxb5 =

As stated previously, I gave up the EG because of the 8.d4 line. That was almost 10 years ago. Now it seems that this is an ok line for black... I haven't followed EG theory for quite some time. What is supposed to be the critical line today?
  
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