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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Giuoco Piano Busted?? (Read 8653 times)
MNb
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Re: Giuoco Piano Busted??
Reply #13 - 11/03/04 at 20:37:51
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"White players nowadays are not very likely to have the pleasure of testing the relative merits of these two moves." Botterill in Open Gambits, 1985, page 42.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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nexirae
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Re: Giuoco Piano Busted??
Reply #12 - 11/03/04 at 18:07:12
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**This isn't my analysis, don't credit me with it**



<"Another dangerous line for Black is 8 . . . NxN; 9 PxN, BxP?; 10 B-R3!! and wins." -Fred Reinfeld, along with numerous other sources. Right now, I guess I'm questioning the validity of 10.Ba3, which I now hold to be bad.>

You have to remember he didn't have modern computer analysis like you probably have and most modern chess players have, back when he wrote those books. At first glance it DOES seem winning. Black can't castle, the e-file's open costing white only an exchange of a piece which is not even developed yet. However I would not dismiss Ba3 yet!


***Let's take a look...10. Ba3!? d5 11. Ba6! clearly this is stronger and more promising than Bb5. 11...bxa6 12. Rc1

a.) 12...Ne7 13. Rxc3 0-0, then comes the forcing sequence 14. Re1 Re8 15. Rce3 Be6 16. Ng5 Nf5 17. Qh5 h6 18. Nxe6 fxe6 19. Rxe6 Rxe6 20. Rxe6 Qg5 21. Qxg5 hxg5 22. Bc5 with the clearly better endgame.

b.) So black should probably try 12...Bb4 13. Bxb4 Nxb4 14. Qa4+ c6

(not 14...Qd7?! 15. Rfe1+ Kd8 16. Qxb4 f6, preventing the winning move Ne5!, 17. Rc5 Re8 18. Rec1 Qd6 19. Qa5 Qb6 20. Qc3 Re7 21. Rxd5+ Bd7 22. Rc5 23. Qc4 with the clear idea of d5 and Nd4-e6 which is winning. This is just one more long forcing line where white has great initiative.)

15. Qxb4 Qe7 16. Qxe7 Kxe7, leading to another better white endgame, 17. Re1+ Be6 18. Rxc6 Rhb8 19. Ng5 Rb6 (forced) 20. Rc7+ Kf6 21. h4 h6 22. Nxe6 Rxe6 23. Rec1! Rb8 24. R1c3! Rb4 25. Rf3+ Kg6 26. Rfxf7 Rxd4 27. Rxg7+ Kf5 28. h5! Rd1+ 29. Kh2 Rd2 30. Rcf7+ Ke5 31. f4+ and there's no stopping white's pawns after Rg6's.

This long endgame line was pretty forced. And the fact that black was responding to white the entire time doesn't say much for this Nxc3 bxc3 Bxc3 line.***

What happens if black declines taking with bxa6....for instance with 10. Ba3 d5 11. Ba6 Ne7?

Well then 12. Rc1 Ba5

***12...0-0?! 13. Rxc3 bxa6 14. Qe2 Be6 15. Ng5 Re8 16. Nxe6 fxe6 17. Qxe6+ Kh8 18. Qf7 Rc8

(else any e7 knight move loses the c-pawn and the 7th rank)

19. Rcc1! an important move for utilizing white's advantage. What a position! It's virtual virtual zugzwang!

19...a5

What else can black play? He's tied down to c7 and certainly can't just give white the e-file with Rxe1+? Rxe1)

20. Rxe8 Qxe8 21. Qxe8 Rxe8 22. g3 with an obviously winning endgame.***

so, continuing from 12..Ba5 13. Qa4+ c6 14. Bxe7 Kxe7 15. Qa3+ Kd7 16. Ne5+ Ke8 17. Rc5! Bb6 18. Rxc6!! bxc6 19. Nxc6 Qc7 20. Bb5 a6 21. Ba4 Be6 22. Rc1 and its clear after this forcing line the bad drawbacks of 8...Nxc3 9. bxc3 Bxc3.

In short, at the very least white has a clearly better endgame, but black has no counterplay, he's always responding to white's moves. That's why everyone plays Bxc3, and ignores going after the pawn. So it turns out Ba3 isn't so bad! In my heart I knew it had to be correct.

Well the Greco attack is almost always avoided in Grandmaster play as white anyway! Regardless of the fact I showed how white gets a great game with that line (only if black plays 8...Nxc3 9. bxc3 Bxc3 though.) Almost everyone universally plays 5. d3.

Let me make my stance clear though. On 8...Nxc3 9. bxc3 Bxc3 I would play 10. Qb3 in an over the board game. 10. Ba3 is an abstract move, as I showed it's a long ways down the road in many lines before its clear why white is good. My choice in a game would be 10. Qb3. I agree with DoctorK's analysis of those lines upwards in the thread.




****

NeX iRae
  
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Bernhard
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Re: Giuoco Piano Busted??
Reply #11 - 10/21/04 at 00:43:06
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[quote]Anyway, 10 Ba3 d5 11 Ba6! is a vast improvement.  Feel free to examine on your own, I have an IM's analysis if needed...
[/quote]
Could you please post this analysis?
Bernhard
  
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Bernhard
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Re: Giuoco Piano Busted??
Reply #10 - 10/21/04 at 00:42:25
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Quote:
Anyway, 10 Ba3 d5 11 Ba6! is a vast improvement.  Feel free to examine on your own, I have an IM's analysis if needed...

Could you please post this analysis?
Bernhard
  
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nexirae
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Re: Giuoco Piano Busted??
Reply #9 - 05/15/04 at 01:40:52
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Hehehe...forgot about this post!

Anyway, 10 Ba3 d5 11 Ba6! is a vast improvement.  Feel free to examine on your own, I have an IM's analysis if needed...

NeX iRae
  
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Re: Giuoco Piano Busted??
Reply #8 - 05/14/04 at 19:02:05
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Bernhard
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Re: Giuoco Piano Busted??
Reply #7 - 02/05/04 at 18:10:15
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Hi I am happy to see that there is so much interest in the Greco Gambit, a variation I always was in love with.
I have two questions:
1) What is the refutation of 13. ...Qd7 a line, which is given as equal by Heycken/Fette.
2) What do you play against 8... Bc3 9.d5 Bf6 10. Re1
    Ne7 11Re4 d6 12.Bg5 Bg5 13 Ng5 h6 14.Qe2 hg5
    15.Re1 Be6 16.de6 f6 17Re3 c6!
Bernhard
  
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spakus
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Re: Giuoco Piano Busted??
Reply #6 - 12/25/03 at 01:02:14
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Hi, in reponse to your lines in which white does not take the draw with 14. Rxe6 I don't like white's position very much.  As far as why the Greco-Moller Attack is so attractive, I couldn't tell you. 

The line you give which might continue 9. Qe2 Qd3 10. Re1 f5 11. Nc3 0-0 12. Qxd3 cxd3 13. Nxe4 fxe4 14. Rxe4 looks good for white because of the easily picked off IQP. 

I also think 7. Bd2 Bxd2+ 8. Nbxd2 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Qb3 Nce7 11. 0-0 0-0 12. Rfe1 gives white better prospects than 7. Nc3
  
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M.Nieuweboer
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Re: Giuoco Piano Busted??
Reply #5 - 12/24/03 at 23:28:23
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Has the wheel to be reinvented again? Botterill in his book Open Gambits of 1986 gives
after 13...Qb8 (horrid according to B) 14.Ne5 a6 15.Qb4 Qd8 16.Bxc6+ bxc6 17.Qb7.
Better is 14...Bc3 I guess, but 15.Bxc6+ bxc6 16.Qxc6+ Kd8 17.Qxc3 Qb6 18.Qg3 gives
White sufficient compensation.
But can anyone tell me why the Greco-Möller Attack is so attractive? Black has two ways to
force a draw, one way to reach equality and one risky refutation attempt. Isn't 6.o-o Nxe4
7.cxd4 d5 8.dxc5 dxc4 9.Qe2!? more interesting?
  
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Re: Giuoco Piano Busted??
Reply #4 - 12/24/03 at 16:49:49
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I think we have proved that 7. Nc3 is still very playable for white in the Italian Game and leads to many fireworks, although I still prefer 7. Bd2
  
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nexirae
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Re: Giuoco Piano Busted??
Reply #3 - 12/24/03 at 12:46:24
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Yes, 14.Rxe6+! fxe6 is a draw...I clearly see that now.  Unfortunate that for such a crazy position that the game will only end up being drawn!  Of course in practice it would be pretty hard for black to find these lines...

Oh and taking the queen and trying an endgame is definitely not a smart move Wink .   

NeX iRae
  
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Re: Giuoco Piano Busted??
Reply #2 - 12/23/03 at 16:49:24
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Me (and my chess engine) think that 14.Rxe6+ fxe6 15.Ne5 Kd8 16.Bxc6 bxc6 17.Nxc6+ Kc8 18.Ne7+ Kd8 19.Nc6+ is a draw.

If you want winning chances then I would look at 13.Qxa1 or 14.Bxc6+ bxc6 15.Qxc6+ Kd8 16.Rxa1, when White has regained some material, and still has quite an awkward bind on the position. I would say that White certainly has practical chances, but I think that unclear is the best evaluation I can give at the moment.

Ben Hague
  
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spakus
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Re: Giuoco Piano Busted??
Reply #1 - 12/23/03 at 16:15:06
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Hi, i have many suggestions for you some may not be so great, others may be, anyway here goes.  one option for white is after 8. 0-0 Nxc3 9. Qe1+ Be7 10. bxc3 avioding the aitken line.  another option in your main line is 13. Ne5.  This line contiues 13. Ne5 Qb8 14. Qxa1 a6 15. Nxc6 bxc6 16. Bxc6+ Kd8 17. Bxa8 Qxa8 18. Qc3.  However there is an interesting atlernitive to white's 17th move Bxa8. 17. Qc1!  the rook can't be saved by Ra7 because Bc5 traps it.  and Qc1 threatens Qg5+ winning two pawns.  a sample game on this line might continue 17. Qc1 Kc8 18. Qg5 g6 19. Qf6 Rd8 20. Be7 Rg8 21. h3 threatening Rxe6!!.  and finally in the main line after 13. Qa4 Qb8!! 14. Rxe6! fxe6 15. Ne5 Kd8 16. Bxc6 bxc6(forced because anything else leads to mate e.g. 16. Bxc6 Kc8 17. Bd7+ Kd8 18. Nf7++) 17. Nxc6+ Kc8 18. Nf7+ Kd8 19. Nc6+ draw by repitition. Or white can take the Queen on move 18 and try his luck with a queen vs. two rooks.

Hope this analysis helps.
  
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nexirae
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Giuoco Piano Busted??
12/23/03 at 14:29:14
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nc3!? Nxe4 8.O-O

All mainline 'til here...Greco attack that is...

8. ... Nxc3!? 9.bxc3 Bxc3!?

The Aitken variation...

10.Ba3

"Another dangerous line for Black is 8 . . . NxN; 9 PxN, BxP?; 10 B-R3!! and wins." -Fred Reinfeld

10. ... d5! 11.Bb5!?

Improvements?

11. ... Bxa1 12.Re1+

Once again, improvements?

12. ... Be6 13.Qa4!?

And yet again, improvements?

13. ... Qb8!!

A novelty of Oblivion7 during a blitz game!  All computer analysis and my own opinion points to black winning now!  However, 13. ... Rc8/Qc8/Qd7 can all be proven as losing for black. 

Can anyone show clear analysis of winning for white after this novelty?  I am stumped...

Unless someone can improve, 10.Ba3 will be branded as a blunder, not a brilliancy.  10.Qb3 is the alternative...which doesn't seem to be all that great, and frankly that would be enough for me to give up the Greco attack! 

Help!! 
NeX iRae
  
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