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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!? (Read 18437 times)
CraigEvans
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #25 - 11/15/05 at 08:13:08
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It's been a long time since I posted here. It, apparently, has also been a long time since anyone discussed these crazy lines. Coincidence?

Anyway, to try and get things going again, here are a couple of my most recent efforts in some of these openings (league/congress matches, all 1800-2100 opposition):

1.e4 d5 2.Nf3 dxe4 3.Ng5 Nf6 4.Bc4 e6 5.Nc3 Qd4 6.Qe2 Bd7 7.Ngxe4 Bc6 8.d3 Bb4 9.Be3 Qe5 10.f4! Qf5 11.O-O-O Nbd7 12.h3 Nxe4 13.dxe4 Bxe4 14.g4 Qg6 15.f5 exf5 16.gxf5 Qg2 17.Bxf7+ Kxf7 18.Qc4+ Ke8 19.Nxe4 Be7 20.Qe6 Rd8 21.Bg5 Nf6 22.Nxf6+ gxf6 23.Rxd8+ Kxd8 24.Rd1+ Ke8 25.Bxf6 Rf8 and I resisted the temptation to sac my other rook with 26.Rd8+ Kxd8 27.Bxe7+ Ke8 28.Bd6+! forcing mate, and just did it immediately.

1.e4 c5 2.f4 Nc6 3.Nf3 e6 4.b3!? d5 4.Bb2! [An analogous idea to the 1.e4 e6 2.b3 in the French] dxe4 5.Ng5 Nf6 6.Nc3 a6 [My opponent must think this is a standard sicilian?] 7.Ngxe4 Qc7 8.g3 Be7 9.Bg2 Nc6 10.O-O b5 11.d3 Bb7 12.f5 Nd4 13.fxe6 Nxe6 14.Nxf6+ Bxf6 15.Rxf6!! and white soon won.

Nothing out of this world, but a bit of good fun nonetheless.
  

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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #24 - 01/24/04 at 14:02:20
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I did a little analysis of the 7..Qd4 line
White must answer with 8. d3 and then black has three main options. (a) 8..Bb4 (b) 8..d3 (c) 8..dxe3

(a) 9. dxe4 Qxd1+ 10. Kxd1 Bc3 11. bxc3 h6 12. e5 Nd5 13. Ne4 when the material is even and white has the bishop pair, but black has a bind on the position because of white's misplaced king.

(b) 9. 0-0 Nbd7 10. Rf3 Bc5 11. Bxe3 Qd6(11..Qxe3 12.Rxe3 Bxe3+ 13. Kh1 Bxf4 14.Nh3) 12. d4 Bb4 13. Nge4 Qe7 is this line it appears that black is best served giving up the queen for R+B+P

(c) 9. Nf3 Qb6 10. Qxd3 Bc5 11. a4 a6 12. Ne5 0-0 13. a5 Bf2 + (13..Qa7 14 Rf1 Nbd7 15. Bf3 Nxe5 16. fxe5 Nd5 17. Be4 g6 18. Bh6 Re8 19.0-0-0) 14. Kf1 Qa7 15. Bf3 when white has nice initative in my opinion

See what you think of these lines.  I will get to the 7. Nd5 lines later.
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #23 - 01/24/04 at 08:08:44
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1. e4 c6 2. f4 d5 3. Nf3 dxe4 4. Ng5 Nf6 5. Bc4 e6 6. Nc3 b5 7. Be2 Nd5... Any chance of a diagram here, as this position looks quite interesting?

Okay, first thing to note, junior 8 seems to think that 7...Qd4 is far more to worry about than 7...Nd5. White may have a few problems here, and has nothing better than 8.d3, where 8...Bb4, 8...e3 and even just the greedy 8...exd3 look like tries for serious advantage to black.

After 7...Nd5, white appears to have two options. He can either continue in gambit style with 8.d4, or he can play in more reserved fashion with 8.O-O.

a) 8.d4 Bb4 (8...exd3 9.Bxd3 Bc5 10.Nce4 Na6 11.a4! seems to offer white chances for the pawn) 9.Ngxe4 f5! 10.a3 Ba5 11.b4 fxe4 12.Nxd5 exd5 13.bxa5 O-O and white just seems to have a bad position.

b) 8.O-O f5 (8...Bc5+ 9.Kh1 O-O 10.d4! {10.d3 - see below) again seems to offer compensation, even if it is insufficient} 9.d3 Bc5+ 10.Kh1 Nxc3 11.bxc3 exd3 12.cxd3 and white seems to have some play for his pawn.

Obviously this is not a systematic analysis of the opening, just a few lines thrown together.

Regards,
Craig Grin
  

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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #22 - 01/23/04 at 21:37:28
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Hi, all
Recently an opponent played a line against me in the Caro-Kann version of our crazy gambit that looks great for black. 
1. e4 c6 2. f4 d5 3. Nf3 dxe4 4. Ng5 Nf6 5. Bc4 e6 6. Nc3 b5 7. Be2 Nd5!  and it appears white is in trouble. 8. Ngxe4 Nxf4 9. d4 Nxg2+ 10. Kf1 is no good.  I suppose 7. Bb3 a4 8. a5 might be better but nothing looks very good.

So does anyone have a way to save white???
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #21 - 01/15/04 at 06:41:53
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I have somewhere in my archives an article on the Tennison Gambit in a magazine I bought in a jumble sale. The analysis is repeated without checking in the book by John Lutes on the Tennison. I found a hole in the analysis which I wrote in the margin of the magazine. NOw if I can just find this magazine in my archives.
  

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M.Nieuweboer
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #20 - 01/04/04 at 16:02:18
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The inventor of the queen sac, Arne Bryntse,
played 10.Nc3 two times in corr. games
against Osterling and won. For details I refer
to the website of Thomas Johansson.
Indeed this seems to be Black's best
defense, but my impression is that White
has lasting pressure.
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #19 - 01/04/04 at 09:19:35
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1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nf3 dxe4 4.Ng5 Nf6 5.Bc4 Bg4 6.Bxf7+ Kd7 7.Qxg4 Nxg4 8.Be6+ Kc6 9.Bxg4 e6. After this white seems to have more difficulties in generating an attack.

  

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M.Nieuweboer
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #18 - 01/03/04 at 21:23:40
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Please be a bit more specific. In what position 9...e6 should be strong?
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #17 - 01/03/04 at 17:08:38
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On the queen sac against the sicilian, a very strong friend of mine played 9...e6 earlier when playing through it, and this move indeed seems more critical.
Any ideas folks?
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #16 - 01/03/04 at 00:28:57
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Also, I had another thought on the Caro-Kann version.(now this is spur of the moment so don't bash me too much)

Why not 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nf3 dxe4 4. Ng5 Nf5 5. Bc4 if black responds with Bg4 (expecting Qd2 hemming in the c1 bishop) then 6. Bxf7+ Kd7 7. Qg4! Nxg4 8. Be6+ Kc7 Now the position is the same as in the other line, except white has a pawn on d4 instead of f4.  This opens up the c1 bishop immediately instead of having to waste a tempo with d3, as in the other line.

Wait a minute.  I think I may have put an end to my own idea if black plays 5...e6 then 6. Nc3 Bb4! and the position doesn't look good for white.  several other moves fail as well 6. Nd2 Qxd4; 6. c3 h6.  The only way I can see to save white's position after 5...e6 is 6. Qe2 Qxd4 7. c3 Qe5 8. Bd3 Nbd7(8. Bd3 Bc5? 9. f4! Qd6) 9. Nxe4 Nxe4 10. Bxe4  When white may have a small advantage due to greater mobility.

What does everyone think of this line?
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #15 - 01/02/04 at 22:14:49
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I agree that the gambit is just as strong in the Caro-Kann as in the Sicilian allthough the database findings aren't as strong in favor of white.

As far as the move 9. Qe8 is concerned, white can continue with 10. Ne6+ Kb6 11. Na3 a5 12. d3 and allthough this line isn't quite as dangerous for black as 9. Qd6 it still holds many prospects for white.

And when black makes the move 3. e6 white can respond with 4. e5 which transposes to a variation of the French where are the prospects are for white.

P.S. Thanks for the website, it has a lot of coverage of this gambit along with several other zany ones as well.
  
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M.Nieuweboer
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #14 - 01/01/04 at 20:03:07
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On the GPA: I agree that after 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5
(this is Black's most active reply) 3.Nf3 dxe4
4.Ng5 etc. it is improbable that Black will agree
with a draw so soon - unless he is much weaker
of course. The real problem is 3...e6 transposing
to a rather boring line.
On the Caro-Kann: after 1.e4 c6 2.f4 d5 3.Nf3
dxe4 4.Ng5 Nf6 5.Bc4 Bg4 (e6 occurred rather
often) 6.Bxf7+ Kd7 7.Qxg4+ Nxg4 8.Be6+ Ke8
it is much harder to avoid the draw.
At the other hand Kc7 9.Bxg4 Qd6 10.Ne6+
Kb6 11.Na3! Qd5 12.d3 is even stronger.
So 9...Qe8 is relatively safer - though I would
rather prefer White.

Anyone interested should take a look at
http://hem.passagen.se/tjmisha/
then click chess!
then click Opening Tips
finally click Bryntse's gambit.
Have fun!
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #13 - 01/01/04 at 08:00:10
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That's fair enough - I've never liked those lines for white though, the developmental lead always seems to be ground away and I end up in a rather stale position. I'd much rather be a pawn down and know I have to prove compensation and play for a win.

As for the sicilian refutation, I'd be tempted to say "to hell with being material down", and try 9.Bxg4 anyway, for example 9...e5 10.O-O Qd4+ 11.Kh1 Nd7 12.Nc3 Nf6 13.Ne6 Qd6 14.Nb5 Qb8 15.Nbc7+, and white might have a playable position. And black can easily go astray.

This queen sac line seems at least equally good for white in the Caro, and possibly better as c6 isn't free for the king or, if need be, a knight. On the other hand, it's a little harder to force the attack, one line might run 1.e4 c6 2.f4 d5 (unlike against the GPA, black will almost invariably respond with this, and caro players are a greedy lot who like to gobble material) 3.Nf3 dxe4 4.Ng5 Nf6 5.Bc4 Bg4 6.Bxf7+ Kd7 7.Qxg4 Nxg4 8.Be6+ Kc7 9.Bxg4 Qd6 10.Ne6+ Kb6 11.d3!! (white can hardly worry about material after giving up his queen) Nd7 12.Be3+ Ka6 13.dxe4 winning for white.

As for the 1.h4 thread, I'm currently getting walloped on IECC by a 1042 (no, that's not his standard, he's only just joined so he had a default rating of 1000, he'll no doubt be of 1900+ standard) in the zany gambit line 1.h4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 d5 4.c3!?!?!?!, but once that game is finished I'll post it and my other 1.h4 IECC experience (a 15 move win for white), and do some analysis, on a new 1.h4 thread. I'm sure Mr. Kosten's not covered it in the e-books yet Wink

Regards,
Craig Grin
  

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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #12 - 12/30/03 at 23:42:03
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Hello all, Anyway I really enjoyed your post Craig

As far as the using 2. Nf3 as an opening move against the Center-Counter is concerned i'm not a big fan.  Not necessarily becuase it leads to a terrible postion for white, but because I like the main line of the CC.  1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qa5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 Bf5 6. Bd2 c6 7. Bc4 e6 8. Qe2 where white has a large devolpmental lead.  However if you are the type of player who likes to play unusual unbooked moves to unsettle your opponent (like me) then maybe this is a good gambit.  I just don't like it better than the main line.

Also, concerning the "refutation" of the Sicilian, I like the positions in the Wild Grand Prix gambit(do you like the name) but the only problem I seem to be having is that many people respond to 2. f4 with Nc6 also g6 and e6 are also played quiet often.  So I guess the moral of the story is i need to learn how to play the Grand Prix 

And in response to the forced draw with 6. Bxf7+ Kd7 7. Qxg4 Nxg4 8. Be6+ Ke8 ect.  as of right now I can find nothing better for white than taking the draw, but seriously who would take a draw when he is already up a queen for two pieces.  Black is almost certainly not going to prepared for the line and is unlikely to know the pitfalls that lay ahead.

P.S.  Craig, I would love to see you post a topic on the flank openings forum about 1. h4 how is this wierd looking move playable?
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #11 - 12/30/03 at 19:04:03
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I am glad everyone is so enthusiastic about that queen sac. But alas it looks like a forced draw to me after 6.Bxf7+ Kd7 7.Qxg4 Nxg4 8.Be6+ Ke8 and what now?
Are there comments on the similar Caro-Kann line?
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #10 - 12/30/03 at 17:10:17
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Nooo, I'm a 1.e4 man, always have been and always will be, apart from my odd experiment with 1.b4 or 1.h4.

I generally despise mainline theory though, I learn just enough theory so as to know how to avoid it without getting crushed  Wink

As for the 4...f5 line, if the best black can do against what looks an insane gambit is give it back for a slight space/development lead, white should be happy. This position is playable for white, he has ideas to undermine the centre and as Schiller points out, black will have trouble castling, at least short-term.

And well, as for the line which should be talked about on the sicilian forum, it seems a moment of drunken craziness, but it seems extremely difficult to defend. Even 5.Nc3 Bf5 6.Bb5+, playing it as a proper reversed budapest with f4 chucked in, seems decent enough. This forum is giving me a lot of zany ideas for my post-christmas break openings! But I tested out the queen sacrifice in one online game, play continued 6.Bxf7+ Kd7 7.Qxg4 Nxg4 8.Be6+ Kc6 9.Bxg4 e5 10.Nf7 Qf6 11.Nxe5+ Kb6! 12.Nc3 Qd8 13.Nc4+ Kc7 14.Nb5+ Kc6 15.a4 Nd7 16.d4 a6 17.d5+ Kxd5 18.Bxd7 axb5 19.Bxb5 Ke6 20.Be3 Kf7 21.Ne5+ Kf6 22.Nd7+ Kf7 23.O-O-O Qa5 24.Ne5+ Kf6 25.g4 h6 26.h4 Rd8 27.g5+ Ke6 28.Rxd8 Qxd8 29.Be2 Ke6 30.Bg4+ 1-0
I thought at first this was nothing but a bit of whimsy, but I dont think black can get away with 5...Bg4, and after 5...e6 6.Nc3, I seriously like white's position, with ideas of f5 in the air, and seemingly no way to even hold the e4 pawn. Maybe we've just refuted the sicilian?   Roll Eyes

Regards,
Craig Grin
  

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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #9 - 12/29/03 at 22:30:01
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I guess we should put this under the anti-sicilians forum.

One small correction though.  The 4th move we were disscussing for white is Ng5 not Ne5 although I suppose that 4. Ne5 could be played as well.
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #8 - 12/29/03 at 19:31:35
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I just wanted to point out that if we want to continue discussing the 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nf3!? dxe4 4.Ne5, then we should move posts to the "Anti-Sicilians" section.
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #7 - 12/29/03 at 17:57:13
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So Craig im guessing you are a 1. Nf3 player?

Anyway I took a look at the website you metioned and I like the continuation for black 1. Nf3 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Ng5 e5. 4. Nxe4 f5.
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #6 - 12/29/03 at 15:47:19
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http://www.chesscity.com/BOOKS/Library/tennison.html

There's some decent-enough analysis of the opening here. And surprisingly enough, all the positions seem tenn-able for white (yes, it's the worst pun you've ever seen, so sue me!). I'm even tempted to make it my anti-1...d5 defence.

Regards,
Craig  Grin
  

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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #5 - 12/28/03 at 23:03:16
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I just wanted to follow up on the last idea.  I think it is a terrific idea.

After 1. e4 c5 2. f4 d5 3. Nf3 dxe4 4. Ng5 Nf6 5. Bc4 Bg4 the game might continue 6. Bxf7+ Kd7 7. Qxg4 Nxg4 8. Be6+ Kc6 9. Bxg4 e5 10. Nf7 Qf6 11. Nxe5+ Kd6 12. Nc3 Qxf4 13. d4 1-0 (the queen is trapped and black will emerge a piece down) and this is a real life example not just something I made up.

Also, I have 13 occurences of the position 1. e4 c5 2. f4 d5 3. Nf3 dxe4 in my database and white's record is an amazing 12 wins 1 loss!!!

I know this may not be a prefectly sound line, but it is certainly worth looking at .
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #4 - 12/28/03 at 19:17:58
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One idea is 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nf3!? dxe4 4.Ng5 Nf6 5.Bc4!? with an interesting queen sac after Bg4. This idea stems from the Swedish corr. player Bryntse.
Similar is 1.e4 c6 2.f4 d5 3.Nf3 dxe4 4.Ng5 Nf6 5.Bc4!?
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #3 - 12/28/03 at 00:23:08
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Regarding the idea of playing a reversed Budapest I believe some have experimented with 1.Nf3 d5 2.b3 c5 3.e4.  Of course b3 is not always useful.  Also I've seen 1.Nf3 d5 2.a4 c4 3.e4 where Larsen suggested that Black play 2....Nc6 instead.  It's hard to get a good reversed Budapest (rB) for a couple of reasons.  One, it's hard to find a useful waiting move.  Two, Black is quite likely to avoid the move you're waiting for (...c5).  At one time I tried to find a way to get a rB from the Sicilian.  The problem is, after 1.e4 c5, finding a move that Black will want to play ...d5 against that is also useful in the Budapest.   For example 2.c3 d5 3.Nf3 is interesting but c3 takes away Nc3 and 3...e6 looks pretty good.  So I guess I never found a good answer.
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #2 - 12/27/03 at 18:37:05
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Exactly.  The possibility of ...c7-c6 is of enormous benefit.
  

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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
Reply #1 - 12/27/03 at 11:52:53
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This is the Tennison gambit. I don't believe it's sound because comparing it to the Budapest the missing move is c4(c5 for black), and I think that having the pawn on c7 not c5 benefits black when compared with the reversed position, i.e. black has a better position in the Tennison than white does in the Budapest despite being a tempo down.

Ben Hague
  
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1.e4 d5 2.Nf3!?
12/27/03 at 10:09:04
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I was wondering if anyone had tried to transpose to a white form of the budapest with 1.e4 d5 2. Nf3 (or incidently with 1.Nf3 d5 2. e4). It seems to hold and there are some stunning miniatures when you get the person to play ...Qd4 to guard the pawn.

1.e4 d5 2.Nf3 dxe4 3.Ng5 Nf6 4.Nc3 Bf5 5.Qe2 Qd4?? 6.Qb5+ Bd7 7.Qxb7 Bc6 8.Bb5 and black is basically lost with a number of mate threats on c8.
  
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