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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 2.Nc3 vs. Pirc (Read 5145 times)
Ben_Hague
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Re: 2.Nc3 vs. Pirc.
Reply #10 - 03/14/04 at 15:51:33
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In the lines with an early g3 I like to play setups with Bg7, Nc6, e5, Nge7, 0-0, and f5, with the c8 bishop maybe coming to g4 or e6 depending on circumstances. Of course without d4 this does give white the opportunity to be boring and symmetrical but that's always hard to avoid as black. If you're desperate then perhaps play the above setup but with c6 and Na6.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: 2.Nc3 vs. Pirc
Reply #9 - 03/14/04 at 08:46:30
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After 1.e4 d6 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 g6  Does Black have anything better (or as good as) than transposing to the Closed Sicilian?

I like 2...g6 better as it is more flexible (unless one was hoping to play the Czech Defense), but after 3.g3 once again what are Black's alternatives to transposing to the Closed Sicilian?  I suppose one option here without the Knight committed to f6 Black could play it symmetrically but that doesn't seem to inspiring.  Basically, if I want to play the Pirc/Modern complex, do I still have to learn the Closed Sicilian which I find distastefull from the Black side?
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: 2.Nc3 vs. Pirc
Reply #8 - 01/10/04 at 23:11:48
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Thanks!  Now I feel satisfied playing Black.  After 1.e4 d6 2.Nc3 g6 3.f4 Bg7 4.Nf3 Bg4! 5.h3 (now I just have to learn how to play against 5.d4, but not much work to do there) 5...Bxf3 6.Qxf3 Nc6 7.d3 (7.Bb5 is probably better, but the suggested 7...Qd7 and ...a6 looks good to me too.) 7...Nd4 8.Qf2 c5,  here I just like to add that playing the Nd1 plan immediately with 8.Nd1 fails to 8...Qa5+ 9.c3 Nb3.  
« Last Edit: 06/27/04 at 14:02:09 by Glenn Snow »  
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Re: 2.Nc3 vs. Pirc
Reply #7 - 01/10/04 at 22:02:08
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Here's an idea in the line that Glenn suggested that might give white some trouble developing normally (as in a Closed Sicilian):

1.e4 d6 2.Nc3 g6 3.f4 Bg7 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.h3 Bxf3 6.Qxf3 Nc6 7.d3 Nd4 8.Qf2 c5 9.g3?! (a normal developing move) then 9...Qa5!.  10.Bd2 is met by 10...Nxc2+ and 10.Bg2 is met by 10...Nb5.

So I think white has to try something else beside 9.g3, but I think black is doing well in this line, since it seems to me that black has a strong queenside initiative.
  

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Glenn Snow
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Re: 2.Nc3 vs. Pirc
Reply #6 - 01/10/04 at 19:45:22
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I also wanted to mention that after:

1.e4 d6 2.Nc3 g6 3.f4 Bg7 after the proposed 4.Bc4, besides the good answer given by alumbrado (4...c6) I think Black can now successfully adopt Ben Hague's idea 4...e6, ...Ne7 and ...d5 as in the Grand Prix without ...d6 variation (Black will have moved his d-pawn twice but hasn't moved his c-pawn).
« Last Edit: 05/06/04 at 00:04:17 by Glenn Snow »  
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Re: 2.Nc3 vs. Pirc
Reply #5 - 01/10/04 at 19:35:04
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First of all many thanks to all of you for your thoughtful advice on what is surely a problem that doesn't keep to many Pirc players up at night.  Having said that, I'm still not to comfortable with the Black pieces.  

Ben Hague suggests delaying ...Nf6 and ...c5 and possible ...Ne7.  After 1.e4 d6 2.Nc3 (by the way I as White play 2.Nc3 instead of 2.f4 because I think that even 2...d5 is playable against the latter) 2...g6 3.f4 Bg7 4.Nf3 e6 (perhaps this isn't what was meant...?) Now I think White should play 5.d4 and while the position is playble for Black it's not what most Pirc players want.

X gives 1.e4 d6 2.Nc3 g6 3.f4 Bg7 4.Nf3 with 3 different possibilites:

1) 4...a6 Here 5.d4 is critical but as he mentions it's quite interesting.  However I don't see why White can't still adopt a Closed Sicilian setup with 5.d3 or maybe even 5.Be2 angling for a Reversed Dutch type setup.  If Black plays a later ...c5 then ...a6 will be a loss of time since he usually prepare that with the active ...Rb8 (only playing ...a6 if White plays a4), but perhaps Black can play some setup with ...c6 and ...d5 here as well.

2) 4...Nc6  I like the idea 5.Bb5 as given, but once again I think White can also play 5.d3 when if Black goes for ...e5 he still looks a little worse.  Or if 5...Bg4 see next note.

3) 4...Bg4 Perhaps White can try 5.h3!? Bxf3 6.Qxf3  this already looks a little better for White to me.  6...Nc6 could be answered by 7.d3, and if 7...Nd4 then 8.Qf2.  White might try a later Nd1 and c3 and try to use the 2 Bishops.  I'll certainly admit this is all a little vague and perhaps Black can put his development advantage to use.

Alumbrado gives: 1.e4 d6 2.Nc3 Bg7 3.f4 Bg7 4.Nf3 c6!?, I'll admit that this is one of the lines I thought White could just play 5.d4 with advantage but the system with 5...Bg4 is interesting.  I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but why can't White play 5.d3 here as well?  Maybe Black should just go ahead with the 5...d5 idea?  So after 4.Nf3 c6 5.d3 d5!? 6.e5 now if White is allowed to play d4 we will probably tranpose directly to the Gurgenidze system (both sides having moved their d-pawns twice).  Here maybe Black has good ways to avoid a transposition.

Finally M.Nieuweboer gives a couple of tranpositionally possibities to the Closed Sicilian and Vienna.  While these are also playble I felt they both committed Black (because of the early ...Nf6) to variations that are  easier to play as White and slightly better for him (although that may be debatable as well).

Many thanks to any more advice and if you actually read all of that without getting bored I'm already thankful!
   
« Last Edit: 05/06/04 at 00:05:14 by Glenn Snow »  
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M.Nieuweboer
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Re: 2.Nc3 vs. Pirc
Reply #4 - 01/10/04 at 15:58:52
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In the past I have considered practising this move
order, but rejected it, as I do not entirley see
what the problem is for Black.
1.e4 d6 2.Nc3 g6 3.f4 Bg7 4.Nf3 Nf6
and White has to move:
A) 5.Bc4 c6 is similar to 4...c6.
B) 5.g3 o-o 6.Bg2 and Black has the choice
between a Closed Sicilian, or two Vienna set ups:
c6/Nbd7 or simply Nc6, both preparing e5.
C) 5.d3 o-o and White has to decide between
6.g3 and 6.Be2.
It seems to me, that Black can adopt his play to
the White's opening strategy. It also seems to me,
that Black does not need - but he has the choice! -
to learn lines of the Robatsch Defense (better name
than Modern). My conclusion is, that White's smart
move order is not so smart after all.
  
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alumbrado
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Re: 2.Nc3 vs. Pirc
Reply #3 - 01/10/04 at 08:39:58
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A further issue arises for Black if after 1.e4 d6 2.Nc3!? g6 3.f4 Bg7, White chooses 4.Bc4, intending to eschew d4 altogether and continue with d3.  However, Black can play 4...c6 here and if 5.d3, 5...d5!? 6.exd5 b5 7.Bb3 b4 followed by 8...cxd5 when Black should be OK.

So it seems that (1.e4 d6 2.Nc3 g6 3.f4 Bg7) 4.Nf3 is the acid test, when in addition to the ideas given by sacanode, Black has 4...c6(!). Then 5.Bc4 d5!? is the same trick as in the line above, and again I think Black is OK there.  The only other sensible move for White is 5.d4 when after 5...Bg4 we have probably Black's most combative Anti-Austrian Modern line, and also the one with the best theoretical reputation.
  

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Re: 2.Nc3 vs. Pirc
Reply #2 - 01/10/04 at 02:01:22
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Three ideas of possible independent significance to this move order that come to my mind:

1.e4 d6 2.Nc3 g6 (I think this is best if you do not want to transpose to a Sicilian.) 3.f4 (Aiming for the Grand Prix.) Bg7 4.Nf3

1) 4...a6 when white probably doesn't have anything better than 5.d4, which transposes to a Modern line that demands accurate play from white (and naturally, of course, black).  I imagine many players from the black side would feel uncomfortable with this line, since black can face great pressure early in the game.  Still, this can lead to original play, and I am not aware of a clear route to advantage for white.  (There was a recent article by Tibor Fogarasi related to this line in NIC Yearbook 69.)  

2) 4...Nc6 when 5.d4 Bg4 is a transposition to line of the Modern that is OK for black.  In the line 1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.f4 Nc6 5.Bb5, instead of 5.Nf3, is usually considered critical (for example, Velimirovic-Davies, 1991).  However, I don't see good way to avoid this transposition after 5.Bb5.

3) I think 4...Bg4 might be best.  The idea is a modified version of 4...Nc6; black aims to contest d4.  For example, after 5.Bc4 Bxf3  6.Qxf3 Nc6, I think black is doing well (if 7.Bb5 then 7...Qd7 followed by ...a6 looks good).  Also, I think 5.d4 is well met by 5...Bxf3.

I think that black can successfully deviate with 4...Bg4.  Be sure to check, though.  These are just ideas that came to mind.  At the moment, my opinion is that white is setting himself up for awkward situation by aiming for a transposition to the Grand Prix Attack in this way.
  

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Re: 2.Nc3 vs. Pirc
Reply #1 - 01/09/04 at 07:12:18
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Personally I use the move order 1...g6, which gives me the extra option of c6 and d5. If you want to play a Pirc move order then I would suggest not playing Nf6 too early. Normally Nf6 is played early to force Nc3 so that c4 cannot be played, so if white plays Nc3 voluntarily then delaying Nf6 makes sense. This also allows black more flexibility if you do play a closed scillian.

You can avoid playing c5 for a while at least if you want to avoid closed scillian type position, maybe even with e6 and Ne7, or try to exploit the ommision of d4 by playing e5.

Ben Hague
  
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Glenn Snow
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2.Nc3 vs. Pirc
01/08/04 at 23:50:55
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I doubt this is very common, but was wondering what other Pirc (I've just decided to play the Pirc) players do against this system (a system I've used many times as White in speed games).

After 1.e4 d6 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 g6 3.Nf3 I'm not sure how best to handle this as Black.  An early ...c5 by Black can be met by the Dangerous Grand Prix Attack with Bc4 or by d3 and g3 getting a variation of the Closed Sicilian that most Black players avoid (early ...Nf6 where White often gets a good attack by h3,g4,f5).  Also, Black has to watch out for transpositions to Austrian attack variations that he doesn't play.

After 1.e4 d6 (I'm using 1...d6 because I'm wanting to play a Pirc move order.) 2.Nc3 g6 3.f4 Bg7 4.Nf3, Black faces similiar annoying transpositional possibilities.  Say 4...c5 besides having to learn some Closed Siclian theory White agains has the possibility of Bc4 and a GPA.  Of course 4...Nf6 transposes to my first paragraph.

How do others Pirc players handle this?
  
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