(UTC)
Latest Updates:
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › Dragon Sicilians › Yugoslav 9 0-0-0 & Intro › 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
(Moderator: MNb)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope (Read 38434 times)
Charles Kane
Guest


Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #28 - 03/14/04 at 17:32:40
Post Tools
17....b5 is what was played in the game.  (The above post gives Bc4 played by black on consecutive moves).

I was hoping that the posting was referring to a promising line for black, I thought we had all pretty well settled that b5 was busted.  Oh well...

[Event "SUI-chT"]
[Site "Switzerland"]
[Date "2003.03.23"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Allemann,Anton"]
[Black "Loetscher,Pirmin"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B76"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 
9.0-0-0 Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11.Kb1 Qc7 12.h4 Rfc8 13.h5 Qa5 14.hxg6 hxg6 15.a3 Rab8 16.Bd3 Bc4 
17.Be3 b5 18.Bh6 Bh8 19.Bf8 Nh5 20.Rxh5 gxh5 21.Bxe7 f6 22.Bxd6 Rb7 23.e5 Qd8 24.Bxc4+ bxc4 
25.Qd5+ Rf7 26.e6 Re7 27.Bxe7 Qxe7 28.Ne4 Re8 29.Nd6 Rd8 30.Nf5  1-0

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
AmateurDragoneer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 387
Location: NY
Joined: 06/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #27 - 03/14/04 at 09:32:20
Post Tools
Thanks Glen. I had trouble finding it at first because there are actually 2 Allemann-Loetscher games from 2003 both of which ended 1-0. I knew the one I found wasn't the right one because it was a c3 sicilian!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #26 - 03/14/04 at 07:25:51
Post Tools
I found the following at Chessbase's online database:

1. e4 c5  2. Nf3 d6  3 .d4 cxd4  4 .Nxd4 Nf6  5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O  8. Qd2 Nc6  9. O-O-O Nxd4  10. Bxd4 Be6  11. Kb1 Qc7  12. h4 Rfc8  13. h5 Qa5  14. hxg6 hxg6  15. a3 Rab8  16. Bd3 Bc4  17. Be3 b5 18. Bh6 Bh8  19. Bf8 Nh5  20. Rxh5 gxh5  21. Bxe7 f6  22. Bxd6 Rb7  23. e5 Qd8  24. Bxc4+ bxc4  25. Qd5+ Rf7  26. e6 Re7  27. Bxe7 Qxe7  28. Ne4 Re8  29. Nd6 Rd8  30. Nf5 1-0, Allemann-Loetscher 2003.
« Last Edit: 03/15/04 at 07:34:47 by Glenn Snow »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mikhail_Golubev
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 56
Location: Odessa
Joined: 02/17/04
Gender: Male
Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #25 - 03/13/04 at 23:11:29
Post Tools
BTW, how to find Allemann-Loetscher 2003 game?
???
  
Back to top
WWWFacebookTwitterYouTube  
IP Logged
 
Paul Hopwood
Guest


Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #24 - 03/10/04 at 13:34:48
Post Tools

Hi all,
        Myself and a colleague are endeavouring to write a book that would be the equivalent to the next edition of Beating the Sicilian, he says modestly!  A game we are using will be of interest here.

Against 9 0-0-0 Nxd4, check out the game Allemann-Loetscher 2003, which contains the big idea mentioned in the NIC Yearbook article.  It convinced me!

Regards

Paul Hopwood

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Charles Kane
Guest


Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #23 - 03/04/04 at 18:22:18
Post Tools
Some brief comments:
17...Bxd3 18 cxd3 b5! 19.Bh6 Bh8 20.Bf8?! Nh5! 
21.Rxh5 Bxc3 22.bxc3

Now, not 22...Qxc3??, after which Black is lost, 23. Qxc3 Rxc3 24. g4! and white gets tremendous pressure, with mate threats along the h-file and tactics against the rook on c3.

Rather, only 22... Rxc3 and 23...b4 or 22.... b4 work for black.  In either case, Black will trade his rooks for the white queen.  For example, after 22...b4 23. axb4 Rxc3 24. Qxc3 Rxb4+ 25. Kc1 Rb1+ the white queen is lost, and Black should probably force the draw.  Similarly, 22... Rxc3 23. Qb2 b4 24. Bxd6 Qa4 25. Bxb8 Rb3 the position looks drawish, although Black must be careful to watch out for Rh8.

Since white can force the draw with 20. Bg5 as noted, Black entering this line needs to be happy with that result.

18. Qxd3 looks stronger for white.  I'm not sure that black has many constructive things to do, i.e. 18... b5 19. Na2 and White has halted the black pawns, and is preparing Nb4-d5 along with the usual h-file pressure.  I don't see a good plan here for black.  On structural considerations alone, I find it hard to imagine that cxd3 could be better; it only helps black to break through, as the above lines with b4 dramatically demonstrate.

I think that 17. Bxc4 Rxc4 18. Qc1 is pretty impressive, and definitely deserves a closer look.  I think Black should omit b5, which cuts off the queen.  An idea is to be able to meet Qf4 by Qf5.  But things don't look great for black.

Looking at these lines makes me wonder whether the idea of hxg6 is fundamentally flawed.  Personally, I think it might be good to look at the fxg6 lines, although I haven't yet done so at all myself.  It seems like the pressure on the h-file is strong enough that Black doesn't have time to organize anything on the queenside.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mikhail_Golubev
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 56
Location: Odessa
Joined: 02/17/04
Gender: Male
Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #22 - 03/03/04 at 18:22:59
Post Tools
After 16.Bd3 Bc4,
Bennedik's 17.Bxc4 Rxc4 18.Qc1! seems to be very strong. His game was published in both Informator and New in Chess; it seems that it's not easy to find improvement for Black there...
Recently Cebalo lost to Parligras in this variation.

Bennedik,M - Demian,V [B76] Email (ICCF Champions League), 2002
16.Bd3 Bc4 17.Bxc4 Rxc4 18.Qc1 e6 19.g4 b5   (19...Rbc8 20.g5 Nh5 21.Bxg7 Kxg7 22.Rxd6 Qe5 23.Qd2 b5 24.Rd7 a5 25.f4 Qc5 26.f5 exf5 27.Rd5 Qc6 28.exf5 b4 29.f6+ Kg8 30.Rd8+ Rxd8 31.Qxd8+ Kh7 32.Nd5 Rxc2 33.Qf8 Rc1+ 34.Rxc1 Qxd5 35.Qh6+ 1-0 Parligras-Cebalo, 9th HIT Open Nova Gorica 2004)   20.g5 Nh5 21.Bxg7 Kxg7 22.Rxh5 gxh5 23.Qf4 Kg8 24.g6 f5 25.Rxd6 Rxc3 26.Qe5 Rc7 27.Qxe6+ Kg7 28.exf5 b4 29.f4 bxa3 30.Rd7+ 1-0

***
About 17.Be3!? : I analysed this line in the end of 1980s (NIC YB/11). Apologies for not updating - maybe 17...Bxd3 or other things were underestimated there.

A) 17...Bxd3?! 18.cxd3 +/-
B) 17...Nh5?! 18.Bxc4 Rxc4 (18...Bxc3 19.Qd5!) 19.Nd5 +/-
C) 17...b5 18.Bh6 Bh8 (18...Nh5 19.Bxg7 Kxg7 20.g4 b4 21.Nd5 +-; 18...Bxh6 19.Qxh6 Nh5 20.g4 b4 21.Bxc4 Rxc4 22.Nd5+-) 19.Nd5! (19.Bf8? Nh5!) 19...Qd8 (only move) 20.Bg5 Nxd5 (20...Bg7 21.Nxf6+ exf6 22.Bh6 +/-) 21.Rxh8+!? (21.exd5 +/-) 21...Kxh8 22.exd5 unclear / +/-

D) 17...Ne8 18.Bxc4 Rxc4 19.Nd5 Qb5 (19...Qxd2 20.Rxd2 e6 21.Bxa7) 20.b3! e6 21.Bh6! (21.a4? Rxa4 22.Nc3 Ra6; 21.Qe2 Rc5 +=/=) 21...exd5 22.Bxg7 Kxg7 (22...Nxg7 23.Qh6 Nh5 24.Rxd5 Rc5 25.g4 Rxd5 26.exd5 Rc8 27.gxh5 Qe2 28.Qc1 +/- /+-) 23.exd5!! (with compensation / +/-) 23...Rbc8 (23...Nc7 24.Ka1!) 24.Rde1! Nc7 25.g4! (worse 25.Ka1 Nxd5 26.bxc4 Qxc4) 25...Nxd5 26.Qh6+ Kf6 27.g5+! Kf5 28.Rhg1! +- (with idea 29.Qh3)

E) 17...Nd7 18.Bxc4 Rxc4 19.Nd5
E1) 19...Qb5? 20.b3 Re8 (20...e6 21.Ne7+ Kf8 22.Qxd6 +-) 21.Qe2 +-
E2) 19...Qxd2 20.Rxd2 Re8 +/= (20...e6? 21.b3!) with idea 21.Bxa7? b6!

...
Line E2 (21.Bxa7!? b6) was later tested in the postal Wch game Cordovil - Lecroq. Of course, it's not as good for Black as I thought, but maybe also not bad?!
  
Back to top
WWWFacebookTwitterYouTube  
IP Logged
 
Patrick
Guest


Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #21 - 03/03/04 at 05:48:28
Post Tools
Nice that you mention 17...Bxd3.  When I was asked to give some variations yesterday, I had another look at the line to check what I might have missed. My attention also went to 17...Bxd3 and a game with it I had in my database. It went:

18.cxd3 Nd719.Nd5, and black had to give a pawn after 19...Qxd2 (19...Qd8 must be horrible, e.g. 20.Bg5) Rxd2 since both a7 and e7 are hanging.
So 18...Nd7 can not be the solution, if there is any after 17...Bxd3 at all. I therefore had a look at the computer suggestion 18...Rc7, which fails to impress after 19.Bh6 Bh8 20.g4! and black cannot use the extra tempo. I looked at 20...Rbc8, 20...Qe5 and 20...b5, and they all lose.

Perhaps instead 18...b5 is an option. Compared to 17...b5, the bishops are exchanged and the c file is a bit more opened. Black now has a line at his disposal which is bad in the line with 17...b5:

18...b5 19.Bh6 Bh8 20.Bf8? Nh5! and now after 21.Rxh5 there is 21...Bxc3 22.bxc3 Qxc3, which would not work of course with a black bishop on c4. Black is at least ok in that position. Also after 21.Bxe7, which is an interesting option in the 17...b5 line too, black can get away with 21...Bxc3 22.bxc3 Qa3. Perhaps he is even a bit better.

Instead 20.Bg5 Bg7 21.Bh6 Bh8 is a repetition, when the white attempt to play for a win with 21.d4 does not change much after 21...b4 22.Na2 Qa4 23.Nxb4 a5 when perhaps white should try to force a draw with 24.Bxf6 axb4 (24...Bxf6!?) 25.Bxg7 bxa3 26.Rh8+ =

In my vies the most promising move is 20.Nd5, since it forces 20...Qd8. Nevertheless I have not found a way for white to get an advantage in this position, so indeed the "delayed b5" after 17...Bxd3 18.cxd3 seems to be ok for black. Perhaps white has to try 18.Qxd3 instead but of course it looks strange after 17.Be3.  Suggestions are of course welcomed Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
AmateurDragoneer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 387
Location: NY
Joined: 06/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #20 - 03/02/04 at 19:27:07
Post Tools
It amazes me not only that black is lost after 17...b5, but how quickly he loses!  Shocked
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Charles Kane
Guest


Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #19 - 03/02/04 at 16:54:27
Post Tools
In the line of Patrick's interest with 15. a3 Rab8 16. Bd3 Bc4 17 Be3:

I think it's clear that 17...b5? loses.  Indeed, playing 22.Nd5! is a clear improvement which shows that black is completely lost.  So this is clearly not the way to go, i.e.

18.Bh6 Bh8 19.Bf8! 19...Rf8 20.Rxh8 Kh8 21.Qh6+ Kg8 22.Nd5! and black has to sacrifice everything to prevent mate.

I confess that I haven't read theory on this line and so this suggestion might be completely flawed, but why not simply play 17...Bxd3

This seems natural, and reasonable.  Comments?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Patrick
Guest


Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #18 - 03/01/04 at 17:22:55
Post Tools
Hi,

the lines are all given above in the same thread. The discussion concerning 17.Be3 so far was the following:

The simple idea of Be3 is just to play Bh6, and after a reply like Bh8 the typical tricky idea of Bf8 appears and works in many cases.

17...Nd7 is given by some sources, but a recent article in a NIC yearbook made things not look as easy as everybody thought. (If I remember correctly at one point black has to sac the a7 pawn and plays b6 to incarcarate the white bishop on a7, but the compensation is not really clear. Sth like that was the essence of that yearbook article)

In reply to that, someone has suggested that 17...b5 leads to a draw. In response to that I provided some of my analysis after 17...b5, which showed me that white wins after 17...b5.

So far nobody has reacted to that and to be honest, I simply don't have an idea what black should play if neither 17...Nd7 nor 17...b5 is satisfactory. My claim that Nd7 has problems as well as the imo refutation of b5 still stands, as nobody disagreed so far in this thread.

Therefore I consider the line to be unplayable at the present moment. I have not found a way for black to get a satisfactory position, and have not been shown any convincing lines since. So if you have an antidote to the plan given above (Be3-h6 and Bf8 in case of Bh8), I would be happy to learn about it Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragoneer
Guest


Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #17 - 03/01/04 at 11:21:15
Post Tools
What exactly is the point of 17. Be3? I realize that with the bishop on d3 that the d4 bishop is not longer protected, but surely removing it from the diagonal makes it easier for black to pressurize c3 and b2, no? Also, what is the bishop going to do on e3 that it can't do on d4? Bg5 or Bh6 seem to waste way too much time to me.

Patrick, what line are you looking at after 17. Be3 that you think is so horrible for black?? Maybe if we knew what line(s) you are concerned about we could give you a better answer.

Also, I will try to post the "refutation" of fxg6 later today.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Patrick
Guest


Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #16 - 03/01/04 at 09:33:14
Post Tools
Hi all,

when I saw the new postings I hoped someone had replied to my analysis of the 13.h5 line with 16.Bd3 Bc4 17.Be3 and then 17...b5, which I concluded not to be playable. Also, after the often suggested 17...Nd7 I don't like black.

So, is there anybody out there having a convincing solution for black in that line? To me it seems the only way for black to get a palyable position in the 13.h5 line, if he opts for 14....hxg6. I would love to hear that black can hold in that line, but so far in my opinion all attempts were in vain.

Another story is 14...fxg6 which is often given as bad, but when I had to play against it once in practice I did not find things that easy.

Patrick
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
AmateurDragoneer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 387
Location: NY
Joined: 06/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #15 - 02/29/04 at 21:28:37
Post Tools
Pretty much as a general rule in the 9. O-O-O Nxd4 lines, Black cannot play Qa5 at once if White has a king on b1, a knight on c3 ready to go to d5, and a queen on d2 against Black's king on g8 and rook on f8. If black opts for 9. g4 first, then 9...Be6 10. O-O-O Nxd4 11. Bxd4 Qa5! is playable because 12. Kb1 Rfc8 stops the threat of Nd5.

I assume this is what you guys are talking about.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
KingDan
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 37
Location: NJ
Joined: 02/29/04
Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #14 - 02/29/04 at 21:24:27
Post Tools
Quote:
Well, in the line posted by TopNotch, 11...Qa5? is a blunder due to 12.Nd5! Qxd2 13.Nxe7+ and Rxd2, winning a pawn - that's the point of playing 11.Kb1!



I know that example, but there are times when black can cut out qc7 successfully. If I remember I'll post it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2026. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge