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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Keres System against English 2.g3 (Read 62694 times)
Billy_Cember
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #18 - 01/22/04 at 21:09:06
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It looks like to me, 15...Rd8 is a mistake. 

After
1. c4 e5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 c6 4. d4 exd4 5. Qxd4
Na6 6. Nf3 Bc5 7. Qd1 O-O 8. Nc3 Re8 9. O-O d6 10. Na4 Bf5 11. a3 d5 12. Qb3 dxc4 13. Qxb7 Qa5 14. Ne5 Rxe5 15. Nxc5 Rd8 16. Nxa6 Bc8 17. Qxa7 Bxa6

(17... Qxa6 18. Qxa6 Bxa6 White has the bishop pair and an extra pawn with a better pawn
structure. Both of Black's c pawns are weak and will be needing defence, condemning Black to passivity)

18. Be3 Rd7

(18... Nd5 (as suggested) loses to  19. Bxd5

19 ... Rexd5 20. Bb6 White wins

19... cxd5 20. Bb6 White wins

19... Qxd5 20. Qxa6 White wins)

19. Qa8+ Re8 20. Qxc6  Black does not have
sufficient compensation for his 2 pawns. Once white gets his rooks out, Black
will be down 2 pawns and a bishop and knight for a much more active bishop pair.

I guess in retrospect, maybe black might to play instead of 12 ... dxc4, a queen or rook move to the 7th rank protecting the pawn; further investigation is required though.

  
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #17 - 01/20/04 at 18:15:58
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Here's my analysis of 15...Rd8:

1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 c6 4.d4 exd4 5.Qxd4 Na6 6.Nf3 Bc5 7.Qd1 0-0 8.Nc3 Re8 9.0-0 d6 10.Na4 Bf5 11.a3 d5 12.Qb3 dxc4 13.Qxb7 Qa5 14.Ne5 Rxe5 15.Nxc5 Rd8 16.Nxa6 [16.Qxa6 Qxc5 17.Be3 (17.Qxc6 Qxc6 18.Bxc6 Rxe2 19.Bf3 Re5 with the idea 20.Bf4 Rb5 21.Be2 Bd3 22.Bxd3 cxd3µ; 17.Bf3 Bh3 18.Re1 Ng4 19.Bxg4 Bxg4 20.Be3 Rxe3 21.fxe3 Qxe3+ 22.Kg2 Bf5-+) 17...Rxe3 18.fxe3 Ng4 19.Qxc6 (19.Rxf5 Qxf5 20.Rf1 Qc5) 19...Qxe3+ 20.Kh1 Nf2+ 21.Rxf2 Qxf2 22.Qxc4 (22.Rf1 Qxe2) 22...Be6 23.Qb5 Qd4µ Black is very active.] 16...Bc8 17.Qxa7 [17.Qb4 Qxa6; 17.Qxc6 Bxa6 compensation] 17...Bxa6 18.Be3 [18.Bxc6 Rxe2 19.Bf3 Re6 20.Be3 Rd7 21.Qa8+ (21.Qb8+ Re8 22.Qb4 Qf5 23.Bg2 Nd5 24.Bxd5 Qxd5µ excellent compensation for black) 21...Re8 22.Qc6 Rc8-+] 18...Nd5 19.Qc5 Qxc5 [19...Qc7!?] 20.Bxc5 Rxe2³ 21.Bd4 Nf4!? 22.Bc3 Nd3 23.Rab1 [23.Bxc6 Rb8] 23...Bb5

This is line seems quite messy.  I tried to present my analysis as compactly as possible, and I emphasized the continuations that seemed most critical to me.  So far, in all the lines I have analysed, black seems at least slightly better to me.  There are probably some faults, since my time is limited, but hopefully this conveys ideas for black to fight for the advantage.

Maybe 12...dxc4 isn't the best move, since it's not as simple as I initially thought (unless I'm missing something).  Anyway, the tactics are engrossing.  I am tempted to look back at move 12, but I think I should stop for now.
  
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #16 - 01/20/04 at 14:08:58
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Actually Cekro-Van Mechelen is the only game I have found with the natural 10.b3.  I think is mainly because there are not many games in the 5...Na6 line.  Any thoughts on this game?  It looks to me that white has the right idea, though I haven't checked it carefully.  New lines like this can sometimes take a little bit of work.

10.Na4 looks wrong to me also.  It looks like a misguided attempt to gain the bishop pair.  However, I think black has some interesting tactical resources here that might be worth a taking a look at from the black perspective.  If a 2440 plays a move like 10.Na4, then that might indicate the justification of black's development isn't entirely trivial.  Smiley  (Half-joking.  Actually I don't like {read "detest"} the use of rating comparisons in assessments, though sometimes there is some truth to it.)
  
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #15 - 01/18/04 at 20:46:27
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Well to be honest I 10.Na4 just looked wrong to me so I haven't really been following the analysis given there. 10.b3 seems to give White the kind of slight edge (with reasonable chances of increasing it) that he looks for in this kind of opening.  I'd be kinda of surprised if there weren't more games on 10.b3 to shed some more light on this.
« Last Edit: 01/19/04 at 03:11:15 by alumbrado »  
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #14 - 01/18/04 at 20:01:39
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Yes, that is a flaw in my analysis!  An embarassing mistake with the placement of the rooks!  Thanks for pointing that out.

I believe though that I have a strong improvement in the counterintuitive 15...Rd8(!).  (The explanation point probably mainly from enthusiasm!  Smiley)  

This line is getting quite complicated, and is getting rather tedious to type by hand.  I think I might use chessbase light to help organize my thoughts and for ease in "typing" in the details.

To anyone else who's interested, I don't think this is of much theoretical importance, but the tactics are fascinating!  Perhaps a good exercise for tactical visualization, since there are several complicated capture sequences.  Hopefully, I'll have my analysis up soon.  (Well, hopefully it's correct.)

I wonder what Glenn thinks of this...
This is perhaps a bit of diversion from the original post.
« Last Edit: 01/19/04 at 03:10:53 by alumbrado »  
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Billy_Cember
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #13 - 01/18/04 at 12:09:50
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Instead of 17. Qxc6 (after 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 c6 4.d4 exd4 5.Qxd4 Na6 6.Nf3 Bc5 7.Qd1 0-0 8.Nc3 Re8 9.0-0 d6 10.Na4 Bf5 11.a3 d5  12.Qb3 dxc4 13.Qxb7 a5
14.Ne5 Rxe5 15.Nxc5 Rb8 16.Qxa6 Qxc5), White should play 17.Bf4. This gains him an advantage


1. c4 e5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 c6 4. d4 exd4 5. Qxd4
Na6 6. Nf3 Bc5 7. Qd1 O-O 8. Nc3 Re8 9. O-O d6 10. Na4 Bf5 11. a3 d5 12. Qb3 dxc4 13. Qxb7 Qa5 14. Ne5 Rxe5 15. Nxc5 Rb8 16. Qxa6 Qxc5 17. Bf4! Rb6 18. Qxa7 Rxb2 (18... Rxe2 19. Be3 Rxe3 20. fxe3 Qxe3+ 21. Kh1 g6 with advantage to white) 19. Bxe5 Qxa7 20. Bxb2 with advantage to white

Thus, instead of 16. ... Qxc5, black should play 16. ... Rxc5 with an even game
« Last Edit: 01/19/04 at 03:10:34 by alumbrado »  
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #12 - 01/17/04 at 21:15:03
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14.Ne5 is an interesting resource that I hadn't considered, but I think black can meet this with the surprising 14...Rxe5:

1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 c6 4.d4 exd4 5.Qxd4 Na6 6.Nf3 Bc5 7.Qd1 0-0 8.Nc3 Re8 9.0-0 d6 10.Na4 Bf5 11.a3 d5

12.Qb3 dxc4 13.Qxb7 Qa5

14.Ne5 Rxe5

-15.Qxa8+ Re8 16.Qxc6 Bd7-+

-15.Nxc5 Rb8 16.Qxa6 Qxc5 17.Qxc6 Qxc6 18.Bxc6 Rxe2

which reaches an endgame that I think is clearly better for black, though I think white has better chances to survive than in the other endgame.

A possible continuation is

19.Bf3 Re7 (19...Rc2? 20.Bd1) when it seems white needs to try to free himself soon with a move like 20.Be3, since if white tries to keep the b-pawn (leaving the bishop on c1), then black can slowly dominate by improving the position of his pieces (Bf5-d3, Nf6-d7-c5-b3, etc.), while white is short of moves.  19...Re7 defends the a-pawn preparing for 20.Be3.

Though after 20.Be3 Bxb2, black is probably not far from winning, since the c-pawn is far advanced.

So if my analysis is correct, I think 12...dxc4 refutes 12.Qb3, but 14.Ne5 makes it a little more complicated than I thought it was.
« Last Edit: 01/19/04 at 03:10:17 by alumbrado »  
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Billy_Cember
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #11 - 01/17/04 at 10:02:05
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Now, after further analysis I see that white can play
14. Ne5!



1. c4 e5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 c6 4. d4 exd4 5. Qxd4 Na6 6. Nf3 Bc5 7. Qd1 O-O 8. Nc3 Re8 9. O-O d6 10. Na4 Bf5 11. a3 d5 12. Qb3 dxc4 13. Qxb7 Qa5 14. Ne5!! Qxa4
15. Bxc6 Qa5 16. Qxf7+ Kh8 17. Nxc4 Qc7 18. Qxc7 Nxc7 19. Bxa8 Nxa8 with the advantage to white.

« Last Edit: 01/19/04 at 03:10:01 by alumbrado »  
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Billy_Cember
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #10 - 01/17/04 at 09:48:20
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Yeah. Your right. I analysed the wrong thing. I think that the final verdict is the 12. Qb3 is not a good move and that white should follow the advice from your first post
« Last Edit: 01/19/04 at 03:09:44 by alumbrado »  
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #9 - 01/17/04 at 00:49:54
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I'm confused by the last post.  My analysis was on the line

1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 c6 4.d4 exd4 5.Qxd4 Na6 6.Nf3 Bc5 7.Qd1 0-0 8.Nc3 Re8 9.0-0 d6 10.Na4 Bf5 11.a3 d5

12.Qb3 dxc4 13.Qxb7 Qa5,

not 12...Qa5 (which I don't think is a very good move).
« Last Edit: 01/19/04 at 03:09:27 by alumbrado »  
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Billy_Cember
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #8 - 01/16/04 at 20:21:17
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Yup, sacanode your 100 percent correct.

I now think that after further analysis (and with the help of fritz 8), that white should play 13. Bd2!



1. c4 e5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 c6 4. d4 exd4 5. Qxd4 Na6
6. Nf3 Bc5 7. Qd1 O-O 8. Nc3 Re8 9. O-O d6 10. Na4 Bf5 11. a3 d5 12. Qb3 12... Qa5 13. Bd2!

13. ... Qd8 14. Qxb7 Qc8 15. Qxc8 Raxc8 16. Nxc5 Nxc5 17. Nd4 Bg4 18. cxd5 cxd5 19. b4 Nce4 White is winning

13... Qc7 14. cxd5 Nxd5 15. Rac1 Bf8 16. Nd4 equal

13... dxc4 14. Qxc4 Be6 15. Bxa5 Bxc4 16. Rfc1 b5 17. Nxc5 Nxc5 18. Nd4 Nce4 19. b3 equal

thanks.
« Last Edit: 01/19/04 at 03:09:05 by alumbrado »  
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #7 - 01/16/04 at 20:14:30
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1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 c6 4.d4 exd4 5.Qxd4 Na6 6.Nf3 Bc5 7.Qd1 0-0 8.Nc3 Re8 9.0-0 d6 10.Na4 Bf5 11.a3 d5

12.Qb3 dxc4 13.Qxb7 Qa5 14.Nxc5 Nxc5

Now I agree that 15.Qb4 is a better move than 15.Qxc6 (which I believe my analysis shows to be losing), but I am completely unconvinced by the claim of equality after

15.Qb4 Qxb4 16.axb4

After

16.axb4 Nb3 17.Ra6 Rxe2

isn't this simply a favourable endgame for black?  Black is very active and is already a pawn up at the moment.  Maybe white has drawing chances, but I have yet to see equality.

For example, after
-18.Rxc6 Bd3 black has considerable pressure (For one thing, white must deal with the possibility of 19...Rc2).
-18.Be3 Nd5
-18.Nh4 Bd3 19.Bxc6 Rd8 20.Be3 Nd5 21.Bxd5 Rxd5 22.Rxa7 h6
White has a difficult defensive task ahead once the c-pawn is unopposed.  I am tempted to say that black is close to winning.  If this is the type of endgame white is aiming for with 12.Qb3, then I am unimpressed.
« Last Edit: 01/19/04 at 03:08:51 by alumbrado »  
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Billy_Cember
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #6 - 01/16/04 at 15:34:21
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After,  1. c4 e5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 c6 4. d4 exd4 5. Qxd4 Na6 6. Nf3 Bc5 7. Qd1 O-O 8. Nc3 Re8 9. O-O d6 10. Na4 Bf5 11. a3 d5 12. Qb3 dxc4 13. Qxb7 Qa5
14. Nxc5 Nxc5 then, (instead of Qxc6?!) 15. Qb4! Qxb4 (15... Qb6 16. Be3 Nfd7 17. Qxb6 axb6 equal White gets developed)
16. axb4 equal
White then developes his bishop, soon, catching up totally in developement.
« Last Edit: 01/19/04 at 03:08:37 by alumbrado »  
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #5 - 01/16/04 at 13:40:22
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After

1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 c6 4.d4 exd4 5.Qxd4 Na6 6.Nf3 Bc5 7.Qd1 0-0 8.Nc3 Re8 9.0-0 d6 10.Na4 Bf5 11.a3 d5
(following the Christiansen-Zuger game),

I think 12.Qb3 is a blunder:

12.Qb3? dxc4 13.Qxb7 (13.Qxc4 b5-+) 13...Qa5! 14.Nxc5 (14.Nh4 Rb8 15.Qxc6 Bd7-+; 14.b4 Qxa4 15.bxc5 Nxc5 16.Qc7 Nd5 17.Qd6 Ne4-+) 14...Nxc5 15.Qxc6 and white is in serious trouble.  For example, 15...Be4 16.Qd6 Rad8 17.Qf4 Nb3-+

I think this further supports my point that white needs to concentrate more on his situation in the center.
« Last Edit: 01/19/04 at 03:08:20 by alumbrado »  
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Billy_Cember
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #4 - 01/16/04 at 09:02:46
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It looks like after
1. c4 e5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 c6 4. d4 exd4 5. Qxd4 Na6
6. Nf3 Bc5 7. Qd1 O-O 8. Nc3 Re8 9. O-O d6 10. Na4 Bf5 11. a3 d5,
White could play
12. Qb3!?. This at least equalizes for white. After Rxe2 0r dxc4, white has 13. Qxb7 white has Qc8 which wins {
any bishop moves lose the knight except for Bxf2 which loses the bishop} (13...
Nc7 14. Nxc5 {winning the bishop}) 14. Nxc5 {winning the bishop} *

If Rb8, then,
13. cxd5 Nxd5 14. Nh4 Bc8 with the initiative for white (14... Be6 15. Rd1 Nf6 {otherwise e4} 16.
Rxd8 Bxb3 17. Rxe8+ Rxe8 18. Nxc5 Nxc5 19. Be3 b6 20. Rc1 equal)

« Last Edit: 01/19/04 at 03:07:55 by alumbrado »  
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