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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Keres System against English 2.g3 (Read 46024 times)
zoo
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #63 - 05/23/13 at 09:55:39
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@HoemberChess : after 1.c4 e5 2.g3, if you like to play ...c6 no matter what, you may as well play it at move 2. You just put a pawn in a place that could be used by a Knight, but if you don't care it's no big deal.

When Black plays 2...Nf6 his thoughts are more or less :
- playing 2...c6 induces 3.d4 when I must enter some super-drawish Keres with Bb4 & d6 (others are possible but this is the main intention). Depends on game/tournament situation. 
- against 2...Nf6 3.Nc3 I have the comfortable 3.Bb4 (however White often delays Nc3 in these lines).
- against 2...Nf6 3.Bg2 I can either play Keres with 3...c6, or the more ambitious 3...d5 leading to the 4Knights after 4.cd Nd5 5.Nc3 Nb6. an attractive option against Marin worshippers.

« Last Edit: 05/23/13 at 11:34:47 by »  
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fling
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #62 - 05/02/13 at 10:16:48
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I don't know, but I guess a point is that White normally doesn't want to hurry with Nc3. Maybe the insertion of ...Nf6 and Nc3 could benefit Black more?
  
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HoemberChess
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #61 - 05/02/13 at 08:21:10
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HoemberChess wrote on 04/28/13 at 07:48:53:
What is the point in Black delaying ..c6 in reply to an early g3?
...


I asked this because in his CB Trainer on 1.c4 e5, Bologan doesn't say a word on it.
Still, he gives lines where 3 ..c6 is the answer to the fianchetto lines with 3.Bg2.

But there must be a reason why most players answer 2.g3 with 2..Nf6, even if they intend to continue with ..c6 (and then ..d5, if possible).

As for me, in the position after 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nf6 _3.Nc3_ I would play 3..c6 anyway,
so I am curious what can happen to Black if he doesn't play hide and seek and just go 2..c6 (a move earlier).

( I know there are a lot of move-order subtleties even here, in the fianchetto, where White can deviate with early Nf3 / d4 / etc. But I don't yet have comprehension of them. I am a 1.d4-player but I like 1..e5 in reply to the English more than any other first move, so I really need the help. Smiley  )


  

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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HoemberChess
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #60 - 04/28/13 at 07:48:53
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What is the point in Black delaying ..c6 in reply to an early g3?
(Given that in the position after 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Nc3 I like to play 3..c6, not 3..Bb4.)

So, what are the advantages/disadvantages of each?
a) 1.c4 e5 2.g3 c6 //immediately after g3
b) 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nf6 (3.Bg2 c6) //only after Bg2
  

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Markovich
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #59 - 03/08/07 at 02:24:41
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MNb wrote on 03/08/07 at 02:11:12:
I am not convinced yet after 18.Be3 Na4 19.Bd4 Rfd8 20.e3. Black certainly has the more active pieces (Nh3, Rh1), but is his initiative strong enough to obtain something concrete?
But I agree, that 10...d5 deserves to be tested.


See revisions to my post that strengthen White somewhat.  But in your line, my silicon likes simply 20...Nc5.  Also 20...Rc4.
  

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MNb
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #58 - 03/08/07 at 02:11:12
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I am not convinced yet after 18.Be3 Na4 19.Bd4 Rfd8 20.e3. Black certainly has the more active pieces (Nh3, Rh1), but is his initiative strong enough to obtain something concrete?
But I agree, that 10...d5 deserves to be tested.
  

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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #57 - 03/08/07 at 01:45:21
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MNb wrote on 03/06/07 at 20:44:12:
Maybe everybody is baffled by 10.0-0-0, as there is a bishop on c1 yet.  Wink
6.Nc3/9.Bf4 0-0 10.0-0-0 d5 11.cxd5 Nxd5 12.Nxd5 cxd5 13.Rxd5 (13.Bxd5 Nb4) Be6 14.Rd2 (iso 14.Rb5) Rac8+ 15.Kb1 Nc5 16.Nh3 and maybe Black's compensation is not entirely enough?


Well, it looks to me as if 16. Nh3 Bf5+  17. Ka1 Bf6 leaves Black with some comp.  Whether quite enough, I am not sure, but it looks pretty hopeful:

18. Be3 Na4.

18. Rhd1 Ne4  19. Bxe4 Bxe4 and I suspect that Black's activity and two bishops will be enough to hold the balance.

Critical is 18. f3 Rfd8  e.g.  19. e4 Rxd2  20. Bxd2 Na4  21. Kb1 Be6  and now:

(1) 22. b3 Rd8  23. Kc2 Rc8+  24. Kd1 Rd8  25. Ke2 Nc6+  26. Bxc6 Bxc6  27. Rd1 Rxd1  28. Kxd1 and now 28...Bxh3 appears to draw by virtue of opposite colored bishops.

(2) 22. Bc1 Rc6  23. Nf2 (23. Nf4 Bc4) 23...Rd6  24. Nd1 Bc4 =.

But instead of 21. Kb1, better is 21. exf5 Rc2 (I hoped this would equalize, but it doesn't) 22. Rc1 Rxd2  23. Rc8+ Bd8  24. Kb1 Kf8  25. b3 Rxg2 and Black is struggling a little.  Whether he can draw, I'm not sure.  Nor do I like Blacks alternatives to 20...Na4 very much.  So perhaps this deals with 10...d5.

It would be nice if a stronger player would supply his judgement here.
  

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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #56 - 03/07/07 at 13:05:07
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Klick wrote on 03/07/07 at 06:15:12:
My opponent "deviated" and played d5 so I will need to come back to this later on when time allows.


Wrong thread, right?
  

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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #55 - 03/07/07 at 06:15:12
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My opponent "deviated" and played d5 so I will need to come back to this later on when time allows.
  

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Markovich
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #54 - 03/06/07 at 21:24:36
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MNb wrote on 03/06/07 at 20:44:12:
Maybe everybody is baffled by 10.0-0-0, as there is a bishop on c1 yet.  Wink
6.Nc3/9.Bf4 0-0 10.0-0-0 d5 11.cxd5 Nxd5 12.Nxd5 cxd5 13.Rxd5 (13.Bxd5 Nb4) Be6 14.Rd2 (iso 14.Rb5) Rac8+ 15.Kb1 Nc5 16.Nh3 and maybe Black's compensation is not entirely enough?


Good grief.  What I meant was 6.Nc3 Bc5 7.Qe5+ Qe7 8.Qxe7+ Bxe7 9.Bf4 0-0 10.0-0-0 and now 10...d5.  I'll look at 14. Rd2 next, thanks.
  

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MNb
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #53 - 03/06/07 at 20:44:12
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Maybe everybody is baffled by 10.0-0-0, as there is a bishop on c1 yet.  Wink
6.Nc3/9.Bf4 0-0 10.0-0-0 d5 11.cxd5 Nxd5 12.Nxd5 cxd5 13.Rxd5 (13.Bxd5 Nb4) Be6 14.Rd2 (iso 14.Rb5) Rac8+ 15.Kb1 Nc5 16.Nh3 and maybe Black's compensation is not entirely enough?
  

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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #52 - 03/06/07 at 02:28:18
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Markovich wrote on 03/03/07 at 20:33:11:
IMJohnCox wrote on 03/02/07 at 13:17:03:
Tony Kosten claims an advantage for White after 6 Nc3 Bc5 7 Qe5+ Qe7 8 Qxe7+ Bxe7 in the last post on page three, I think, Markovich? Based on Schwarz-Kosten Austria 2005.


Ah.

I was looking at that: 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 c6 4.d4 exd4 5.Qxd4 Na6 6.Nf3 Bc5 7.Qe5+ Qe7 8.Qxe7 Bxe7 9.Nc3 0-0  10. 0-0-0 and I wondered if now instead of 10...Rd8 as played, 10...d5! would have been any good.  Notwithstanding the absent queens, Black seems to get some pretty good compensation for his pawn.  E.g. 11. cxd5 Nxd5  12. Nxd5 (12. Bxd5 cxd5  13. Nxd5 Bc5) 12...cxd5  13. Rxd5 Be6  14. Rb5 Rac8+  15. Kb8 Nc5.


Well, I'm surprised that no one has reacted to this by now, since I think 10...d5! does improve significantly on Schwartz-Kosten and bears on the viability of 5...Na6.
  

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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #51 - 03/03/07 at 20:33:11
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IMJohnCox wrote on 03/02/07 at 13:17:03:
Tony Kosten claims an advantage for White after 6 Nc3 Bc5 7 Qe5+ Qe7 8 Qxe7+ Bxe7 in the last post on page three, I think, Markovich? Based on Schwarz-Kosten Austria 2005.


Ah.

I was looking at that: 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 c6 4.d4 exd4 5.Qxd4 Na6 6.Nf3 Bc5 7.Qe5+ Qe7 8.Qxe7 Bxe7 9.Nc3 0-0  10. 0-0-0 and I wondered if now instead of 10...Rd8 as played, 10...d5! would have been any good.  Notwithstanding the absent queens, Black seems to get some pretty good compensation for his pawn.  E.g. 11. cxd5 Nxd5  12. Nxd5 (12. Bxd5 cxd5  13. Nxd5 Bc5) 12...cxd5  13. Rxd5 Be6  14. Rb5 Rac8+  15. Kb8 Nc5.
  

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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #50 - 03/02/07 at 13:17:03
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Tony Kosten claims an advantage for White after 6 Nc3 Bc5 7 Qe5+ Qe7 8 Qxe7+ Bxe7 in the last post on page three, I think, Markovich? Based on Schwarz-Kosten Austria 2005.
  
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Re: Keres System against English 2.g3
Reply #49 - 03/02/07 at 11:49:27
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Quote:
Quote:
I think you mean one of the first post's of this thread. Personally I don't think white has much chance for advantage after, 4.d4, and should try one of the 4Nf3 e4 ones...


That may be but Black doesn't appear to be able to equalize with 4.d4 exd4 (4...Bb4+ is solid) 5.Qxd4 Na6 (probably the old move 5...d5 is best).  For the reason why just look at the previous posts which shows White has at least 2 effective answers.


Pehaps you would summarize the arguments for White's advantage, since I read this material and drew the opposite conclusion.
  

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