Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C29: Vienna gambit with 5.Nf3 (Read 4580 times)
Peter Kitchen
Guest


Re: Vienna gambit with 5.Nf3
Reply #10 - 04/28/04 at 03:24:54
Post Tools
My last game in this line (I was black) went 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 d5 4.fxe5 Nxe4 5.Nf3 Bc5 6.d4 Bb4 7.Bd2, and now instead of the recommended 7...Bg4 I played Bxc3 immediately.

The game continued 8.Bxc3 (bishop not pawn taking) 0-0 9.Bd3 Bg4 10.0-0 c5 and i quickly got into a very aggressive position before my opponent forced a draw by repitition at move 17.

The rest of the moves were: 11.dxc5 Nxc5 12.Be2 Nc6 13.Qe1 Ne4 14.Rd1 Qb6ch 15.Kh1 Rfd8 16.Bd3 Bf5 17.Nh4 Bg4 18.Nf3 Bf5 19.Nh4 Bg4 20.Nf3 Bf5 1/2-1/2

Any idea how I could have improved on this?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
feb
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 73
Location: maastricht
Joined: 01/31/04
Gender: Male
Re: Vienna gambit with 5.Nf3
Reply #9 - 02/10/04 at 03:50:39
Post Tools
Yes, I think we may then draw the conclusion that 8.Bd3 is a mistake, as after 8...Bxf3 9.Qxf3 Qh4+ black wins the d4-pawn, leaving white with insufficient compensation indeed.

Thanks Glenn and Mnb for the cooperation. It was a pleasure to analyse it together. 

feb
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10425
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Vienna gambit with 5.Nf3
Reply #8 - 02/08/04 at 19:10:39
Post Tools
I agree that line C3 is critical:
8.Bd3 Bxf3 9.Qxf3 Qh4+ 10.g3 Nxd2
C3b) 11.Qf5 Qxd4 12.o-o-o Bxc3 13.bxc3 Qxc3
   14.Qc8+ Ke7 15.Qxh8 Nf3 16.Kb1 Qb4+ and
   what about the try 17.Ka1 Nd2 18.Rxd2 Qxd2
   19.Qxg7 Nd7 20.e6 eg Kxe6 21.Bf5+!?
   So 12...Nc6! is best indeed.
C3c) 11.Kxd2 Qxd4 12.a3 Bxc3+ 13.bxc3 Qc5 14.Rhf1
   was the aforementioned game Hucl-Rabar. Is 14.e6 an
   improvement? White has only few pieces left to start
   an attack, which must compensate two pawns after
   fxe6 15.Rae1. At the other hand 14.e6 o-o?! 15.Rhf1 f5
   16.e7 Qxe7 17.Qxd5+ seems playable.
I have done my best to defend White's case, but for the
time being I will stay away from Vienna ...
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
feb
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 73
Location: maastricht
Joined: 01/31/04
Gender: Male
Re: Vienna gambit with 5.Nf3
Reply #7 - 02/07/04 at 12:13:00
Post Tools
Just to recap, we have been looking at the variation:

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 d5 4.fxe5 Nxe4 5.Nf3 Bc5 6.d4 Bb4 7.Bd2 Bg4 8.Bd3.

As for your question MNb on earlier deviations, both 7...Nxd2 8.Qxd2 Nc6 and 7...Nxd2 8.Qxd2 Bf5 (Vorotnikov-Kuzmin 1997) look very reasonable to me. (IM Gary Lane likes 8...Bf5, see his book "Vienna game", 2000). As white you may encounter them, but as black I prefer 7...Bg4, which leads to more interesting positions in my opinion.

You can check the variations below. They are far from perfect and I expect many improvements, but this is how far I am at the moment. For the sake of clarity, I will follow the numbering of the variations as before.

C2] yes, good observation MNb, 11.Be3 is unpleasant indeed.

D] 8...Nxd2 9.Qxd2 Bxf3 10.gxf3 Qh4+ 11.Qf2 Qh6 looks playable, I need to check it further.

And now into deeper waters, the critical line:

C3] 8...Bxf3 9.Qxf3 Qh4+ 10.g3 Nxd2

here we have 2 remaining alternatives (11.Qxd5 loses, we have discussed it):

_________________________
*C3b] 11.Qf5 Qxd4. I start to get the feeling that black is winning here, see the variations below. However, it is sometimes tricky. A further split (all with advantage to black):

**12.Qc8+ Ke7 13.Qxh8 (13.Qxc7+ Nd7) 13...Ne4

**12.Kxd2 white's minor pieces get pinned this way: 12...Nd7 13.e6 Nf6 14.exf7+ Kxf7 15.Rhf1 Rae8

**12.O-O-O and then:

***12...Bxc3 seems to draw with best play: 13.bxc3 Qxc3 14.Qc8+ Ke7 15.Qxh8 Nf3 16.Kb1 Qb4+ draw with perpetual checks

***12...Nc6 could be winning for black. It avoids tricks with e6 (as black could then castle queen-side), and prevents Qc8+. Then: 13.Kxd2 g6 14.Qg5 O-O favours black in my view.

_________________________
*C3c] 11.Kxd2 Qxd4 gives 3 possibilities:

**12.a3 perhaps the best. It is still unclear to me. Then 12...Bxc3+ 13.bxc3 Qc5 14.e6 (or 14.Rhf1!?) O-O 15.exf7+ Rxf7 16.Bxh7+ Kf8 17.Qe2 (17.Qh5 Rf2+) 17...Nd7 18.Rhf1 Nf6 19.Bg6 Re7

**12.e6 O-O looks good for black

**12.Rhf1 (the most likely of all variations in OTB games) O-O 13.Rae1 Nc6 and black has the advantage (he can continue with Rae8 attacking e5 or play g6 when necessary).

So, that is all for now. As I said, these variations are not yet perfect (I am not a strong player). I appreciate any improvements (especially in variation C3c with 12.a3, the only one in fact which may keep 8.Bd3 playable for white). Let me know what you think.

Thanks a lot, feb
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10425
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Vienna gambit with 5.Nf3
Reply #6 - 02/03/04 at 19:44:40
Post Tools
Well, I do not know if I have real improvements. But it seems that I have underestimated 8.Bd3:
C1) 8...Nc6? 9.Nxe4 is good for White.
C2) 8...Bxc3 9.bxc3 o-o 10.o-o f6 and White might try
     11.Be3 fxe5 12.dxe5 Nxc3 13.Qe1 Ne4 14.Qb1 as
     Na6? 15.Bxe4 dxe4 16.Qb3+ gives White a winning
     attack.
C3) 8...Bxf3 9.Qxf3 Qh4+ 10.g3 Nxd2
C3a) 11.Qxd5? Qxd4 12.Qxb7 Bxc3 13.Qc8+ Ke7
       14.Qxc7+ Nd7 15.Qxc3 Nf3+ and Black wins.
C3b) 11.Qf5 Qxd4 12.o-o-o e.g. Nd7 13.e6 is interesting indeed.
C3c) 11.Kxd2 Qxd4 12.Rhf1 o-o and I do not see compensation.
So I stick to earlier mentioned deviations:
D) 8...Nxd2 9.Qxd2 Bxf3 10.gxf3 Qh4+ 11.Qf2 Qh6 is about equal; 12.Qd2 Qh4+ is an early draw.

What is wrong with 7...Nxd2 8.Qxd2 Nc6!? I am very interested, as I might contemplate to play the Vienna myself ...
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 1968
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Vienna gambit with 5.Nf3
Reply #5 - 02/03/04 at 18:39:13
Post Tools
Hiya Feb  Grin

I usually copy games from Chessbase as I don't have the Fritz program, but I will try to find out for u. I will also take a closer look at your analysis as soon as I can and post my findings.

Till then.

Take care

Top  Grin
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
feb
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 73
Location: maastricht
Joined: 01/31/04
Gender: Male
Re: Vienna gambit with 5.Nf3
Reply #4 - 02/03/04 at 06:07:18
Post Tools
Thanks for all the replies. So, after

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 d5 4.fxe5 Nxe4 5.Nf3 Bc5 6.d4 Bb4 7.Bd2 Bg4,

white has several playable alternatives (with C3 being the most complicated and remaining unclear to me):

A] 8.a3. Instead of 8...Bxf3, I think it should be answered by 8...Be7 (note black has lost 2 tempi with this bishop, but white has spent time on a3 and Bd2) 9.Be2 (here 9.Bd3 fails to 9...Bh4+ 10.g3 Nxd2 - the bishop on d2 is to black's advantage here)  0-0 10.0-0 f5 seems ok to me.

B] 8.Nxe4 dxe4 9.Bxb4 exf3 10.Qd2. Here Emms recommends 10...Qd5, usually followed up by Nc6 and 0-0-0. I feel comfortable with black in this variation.

C]  8.Bd3. It leads to complications, we know that already. A further split:

--C1] 8...Nc6. I don't trust it really: 9.Nxe4 dxe4 10.Bxe4 Bxf3 11.gxf3 seems better for white (after both 11...Qxd4 12.c3 or 11...Qh4+ 12.Kf1).

--C2] 8...Bxc3 9.bxc3 0-0 10.0-0 f6 11.exf6 Rxf6 seems playable to me at the moment.

--C3] 8...Bxf3 9.Qxf3 Qh4+ 10.g3 Nxd2 11.Kxd2 Qxd4 12.Rhf1 is still very unclear to me (close to equal perhaps). One must be prepared for even 11.Qf5 or 11.Qxd5 (I am almost sure now that 11.Qxd5 loses to 11....Qxd4).

Do you agree with the short analysis above? I appreciate any improvements or comments. Any new ideas?

feb

ps.
1. By the way TopNotch (nice to see you here at this forum), Pete had no comment on this particular variation.
2. How do you copy moves and variations from fritz in an easy way?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 1968
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Vienna gambit with 5.Nf3
Reply #3 - 01/31/04 at 22:37:41
Post Tools
Hey feb  Grin

Didn't Pete already answer this question for you on the New Jersey chess site "Opening for Amateurs", or contrary to what you said weren't you happy with his answer.

Top  Grin
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10425
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Vienna gambit with 5.Nf3
Reply #2 - 01/31/04 at 21:17:40
Post Tools
In my database I found two relevant games.
Your position is already "known" from a game Hucl-Rabar, Trencianske Teplice 1941, though reached by a different move order. Black won after 5...Be7 6.d4?! Bg4 7.Bd3 Bb4 8.Bd2 Bxf3 9.Qxf3 Qh4+ 10.g3 Nxd2 11.Kxd2 Qxd4 12.a3 Bxc3+ 13.bxc3 Qc5 14.Rhf1 Qe7 15.Qxd5 c6 and White has no attack, but a lot of shattered
pawns.
In Stanley-Horwitz, Manchester 1861, Black had an extra pawn on f4. That is in his advantage of course. But the applied continuation Nxd2 9.Qxd2 Bxf3 10.gxf3 Qh4+ seems to be playable without the pawn on f4 too.

There are other continuations which might bother you:
8.Nxe4 dxe4 9.Bxb4 exf3 10.Qd2 Lehvae-Starck, corr 1974.
8.a3 Bxf3 9.Qxf3 Nxd2 10.Kxd2 Bolon-L'Huillier, Romans 1999.

I do not own the Emms book. But I think 7...Nxd2 8.Qxd2 Nc6 is better. I also think 5...Be7 is not safer as 6.d3 Nxc3 7.bxc3 is not so easy for Black; this is a transposition to several 5.d3 Nxc3 6.bxc3 lines.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1683
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Vienna gambit with 5.Nf3
Reply #1 - 01/31/04 at 20:34:05
Post Tools
After 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 d5 4.fxe5 Nxe4 5.Nf3 Bc5 6.d4 Bb4 7.Bd2 Bg4 8.Bd3 Bxf3 9.Qxf3 Qh4+ 10.g3 Nxd2 11.Kxd2 Qxd4 12.Rhf1 play looks roughly equal (or perhaps roughly unclear) to me.  What did you play instead of 8....Bxf3?  Maybe 8...Bxc3 iwth the idea of ...Qe7 or ...c5 or both is OK.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
feb
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 73
Location: maastricht
Joined: 01/31/04
Gender: Male
C29: Vienna gambit with 5.Nf3
01/31/04 at 18:35:16
Post Tools
I often get into trouble as black, especially against stronger players, when facing the Vienna gambit:

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 d5 4.fxe5 Nxe4 5.Nf3.

Here, instead of the safer but drawish 5...Be7, I usually follow the recommendation of John Emms gm (from his book "Play the open games as black") and enter the variation

5...Bc5 6.d4 Bb4 7.Bd2 Bg4.

My last opponent played 8.Bd3 (instead of 8.Nxe4 dxe4 9.Bxb4 exf3, which is the only continuation Emms considers). I lost in the middle-game (I am not a strong player though), but at home I noticed that maybe I should have played 8...Bxf3 9.Qxf3 Qh4+, when my comp seems happy for black, as black is going to win the d4-pawn. However, if I go deeper in the complications, white often becomes better developed, and then I am not so sure I like black's position any more. I tried to look at both 10.g3 Nxd2 11.Kxd2 Qxd4 and 10.Ke2 Nxd2 11. Kxd2 Qxd4 (here white can play Qh3 in some variations, looks totally irrelevant though).

What do you recommend after 8.Bd3? I appreciate any comment or idea. Thanks, feb
« Last Edit: 09/21/11 at 06:03:51 by Smyslov_Fan »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo