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Normal Topic C29: Vienna gambit (Read 26839 times)
feb
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Re: Vienna gambit
Reply #9 - 05/28/04 at 03:16:28
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Regarding 4th and 5th move alternatives: after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 exf4

4.Bc4 c6 transposes into the main line of the Bishop's gambit; 4.Nf3 Be7 [4...d5!?] transposes into a line of the Cunningham defence; while 4.d4 Bb4 also looks OK for Black

4.e5 Ng8 and then either 5.Qf3/Qg4/Bc4 d6 or 5.Qe2/d4 Qh4+, and I don't see anything special for White.

In general, I believe that Black should do OK. White has a great advantage in developement, but Black is after all a pawn up, has no real weaknesses yet and, with a quick d6 and Nc6, he can challenge White's e5-pawn, which looks somewhat overextended. Imho, [1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 exf4] 4.e5 Ng8 5.Nf3 d6 6.Qe2 is White's best try, but after 6...Be6 I cannot prove +/- or anything near it.
The usual question mark after 3...exf4 is probably given due to the look of the forced retreat 4...Ng8 and the high regard for 3...d5. Imho, a question mark is just too harsh (certainly without providing a good plan or variation justifying it), and ?!/!? is closer to the truth.

  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Vienna gambit
Reply #8 - 05/25/04 at 07:17:30
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I agree that 6.Qe2 Be6 looks fine for Black.  Have you yet looked into my other tries on the fifth move (5.Qe2 and 5.Qf4)?  Although I can't find an advantage with these moves either maybe I'm wrong.  What about 5.d4!?.  White has played 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.d4 before and here Black doesn't even have his quuen knight out (unfortunately the pawn on e5 instead of e4 is not so great).  It is hard to believe the simple 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 exf4 4.e5 Ng8 5.Nf3 doesn't lead to something but I still can't find anything tangible.  I started wondering if 4.e5 could actually be wrong.  I suppose White has a couple of fourth move alternatives that lead to different variations.
  
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Re: Vienna gambit
Reply #7 - 05/25/04 at 06:13:27
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I could not find anything concrete for White after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 exf4 4.e5 Ng8 5.Nf3 d6 6.Qe2, as for example MNb's 6...Be6 seems to be playable, although there are some tricky variations with Qb5+. I have tried other 5th and 6th moves for White too,  but they make Black's game less difficult in my opinion. I find it difficult to believe that White has a simple way for a clear advantage (+/-), but stronger players can perhaps demonstrate one.
  
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Re: Vienna gambit
Reply #6 - 05/16/04 at 09:13:52
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I had looked at the position after 6.Bc4 when I first encountered the Ng8 paradox.  Perhaps there is still a way to make it work but I never found it.  Which is why I recommended looking at a couple of other fifth moves and am now suggesting that 6.Qe2!? might also be work a look.
  
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Re: Vienna gambit
Reply #5 - 05/16/04 at 08:46:20
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I think the lines MNb has given are good for White. However, after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 exf4 4.e5 Ng8 5.Nf3 d6 6.Bc4, in my view 6...Nc6 is the toughest nut to crack. I have spent quite some time on it, and I still cannot prove a clear advantage to White. If 7.exd6 then 7...Bxd6 should be OK, while 7.Qe2, 7.d4, 7.0-0 can all be answered with 7...dxe5, when White has sufficient compensation for two pawns, but I don't see a clear way for more. Do I overlook something simple?
  
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Michael Wagstaff
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Re: Vienna gambit
Reply #4 - 02/09/04 at 08:53:37
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Thanks very much to the two players who have sent replies so far. I am relieved to know someone else has stumbled across the same conundrum though I cannot see that black's position is tenable. I will investigate more fully the lines suggested by MNB and I am grateful for the games he cites. I have looked at the line after d6 that runs 5. Bc4-Nc6 6. Qe2-dxe5 7. d4 Nd5 I was of the thinking that Qxe5 was the move when Nd6 and Bxd6 made things a little bit difficult. But I am now coming to the view that after Nd5 white exchanges knights to bring the queen out and then plays Nb5 and follows up with Bxf4. If c6 then Bxe5 wins.
  
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Michael Wagstaff
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Re: Vienna gambit
Reply #3 - 02/09/04 at 08:51:16
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Thanks very much to the two players who have sent replies so far. I am relieved to know someone else has stumbled across the same conundrum though I cannot see that black's position is tenable. I will investigate more fully the lines suggested by MNB and I am grateful for the games he cites. I have looked at the line after d6 that runs 5. Bc4-Nc6 6. Qe2-dxe5 7. d4 Nd5 I was of the thinking that Qxe5 was the move when Nd6 and Bxd6 made things a little bit difficult. But I am now coming to the view that after Nd5 white exchanges knights to bring the queen out and then plays Nb5 and follows up with Bxf4. If c6 then Bxe5 wins.
  
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MNb
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Re: Vienna gambit
Reply #2 - 02/08/04 at 19:07:23
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There are a few things I do not believe in chess. One of them is
that 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 exf4 4.e5 Ng8? is playable. White
must concentrate on quick development of course.
After 5.Nf3 d6 6.Bc4 Black has a hard time:
a)6...dxe5 7.Nxe5 Qh4+ 8.Kf1 Nh6 Griffiths-Ramakrishna, 1994,  9.Qe2 and Black has nothing better than Kd8;
b)6...Be6 7.Qe2 Nc6 8.d4 Bxc4 9.Qxc4 Pitonak-Szalayova,  1994, dxe5 10.o-o with great compensation;
c)6...Bg4 7.o-o Nc6 8.exd6 Bxd6 9.Re1+ Nge7 10.Bxf7+!
I think every KG-player will enjoy these positions.
Moreover after 6.Qe2 White has a very nice 4½/5 score,
though Be6 might just be playable.
  

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Glenn Snow
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Re: Vienna gambit
Reply #1 - 02/07/04 at 23:46:46
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I used to play this variation a lot and I always wondered the same thing!  Anyway, what about 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 exf4 4.e5 Ng1 (just a side note, have you ever seen 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.exf5 e4 4.Ng1!? Which is another Bücker idea which he considers very good for White.  Here we have the same position reversed except White has the extra move Nc3.) 5.Nf3 (5.Qg4!?; 5.Qe2!? Qh4+ 6.Kd1 unclear) 5...d6! 6.Qe2!?

I actually think 3...exf4 doesn't deserve the "?" it's usually given.
  
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Michael Wagstaff
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C29: Vienna gambit
02/07/04 at 12:19:21
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What is white's best line against black after the moves 1. e4-e5 2. Nc3-Nf6 3. f4-e5xf4 4. e5 Ng1 5.Nf3 d6
White should be able to get a plus out of this as black has lost time retreating his knight. If black takes on e5 what does white do? If knight takes then there is an h5 check. If he has played d4 and takes with the pawn then there is a queen exchange. I have tried Bc4 followed by 0-0 or Qe2 but I cannot see a clearcut line. Any offers?
« Last Edit: 09/21/11 at 05:55:48 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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