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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C00: The "Anti-French" 2.Qe2 (Read 9773 times)
Klick
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Re: The "Anti-French" 2.Qe2
Reply #26 - 11/14/05 at 02:25:30
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Thanks for your reply SF:

With 10...Qd7 Black develops his queen off the backrank. This seems very sensible to me, as 10...a6 can turn out to be a wasted tempo and additionally might take away a good square for the bishop.The c-file is likely to be opened so I don`t think it will be very well placed on c7. As Castlerock points out: when the Na3-knight moves black gets to play b5.  After 10...Qd7 white must decide what to do to complete development: 11.d4 is not possible, so should he play 11.Nc2 to enforce it but then allow black what he wants: 11...b5? White must do something and 11.d3 once again allows 11...b5. The alternative is 11.Rd1 to enforce d4 without allowing b5, but then 11...d5 12.d4 cxd 13.cxd dxe looks interesting. As I`ve mentioned a number of times; in the Ulibin-Ivanov game black loses not because of 10...Qd7, but because of mistakes starting with 14...Rb6

I agree that 10...f5 looks interesting and also deserves attention.

To me it seems like Black equalises without much trouble in these lines. Asking about winning-chances is always legitimate, but equalising in straightforward manner is a good start! Anyway, your question made me think a bit and I came up with the following as an alternative to take advantage of white`s move-order 1.e4 e6 2.Qe2 c5 3.g3 Nc6 4.c3 d5!, which looks quite promising.

Smiley
  

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castlerock
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Re: The "Anti-French" 2.Qe2
Reply #25 - 11/13/05 at 23:48:18
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@SF,

I thought idea of Qd7 was to complete the development. What you wrote makes good sense. If Qb7 is the best, it means queen has to move out once before reaching b7. Qd7 appears logical to me since as you say, Qc7 might be a problem because of Nb5. A queen move, imho, is much more useful than …a6 since a3 knight has to move out anyway, permitting b5.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: The "Anti-French" 2.Qe2
Reply #24 - 11/13/05 at 10:40:54
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Btw, although I really dislike 10...a6, I don't see that 10...Qd7 is as useful as you suggest.  In one game, Black never moved his queen again and lost in the middlegame (the oft-quoted Ulibin-Ivanov game) and in another, Black brings the Q to b7, which may be an improvement.  Even so, I am looking for alternatives to both (again 10...f5!? becomes more appealing).  10...Qc7 would be nice if White were forced to play 11.Nc2?? but 11.Nb5 looks like it's at least a draw for White and probably better than that.
  
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Re: The "Anti-French" 2.Qe2
Reply #23 - 11/13/05 at 10:29:47
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Klick,

I've been watching the discussion, but didn't have anything to add until just now.  The game you gave, Moro-Bareev 1997, seems to be just the right sort of play for Black.  Na3-c2 seems like a really slow way to enforce d4, especially considering White coulda played it on move 2!  Shocked.  I never thought much of 2.Qe2, and thought the most dangerous set-up for White involved a KIA with the Nb1 making the long trek Nb1-c3-e2-f4 where it can do some unorthodox tactical damage to Black's kingside. 

The games in this thread have made me reconsider.  I still like forcing play on the Q-side with b5 (and I prefer ...Rb8 to ...a6), but the other idea of ...f5 is also very appealing. 

For me, the key question is, does Black have good winning chances in these variations?
  
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dom
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Re: The "Anti-French" 2.Qe2
Reply #22 - 11/12/05 at 09:38:37
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Thanks Klick,...
I have not yet analysed Qd7, only entered the moves of previous games of the thread...At current time, I don't think Black needs to use a tempo to move the queen, since Black counterplay, in such a line, is to use the b-file to open one file. In fact, it will be useful if the plan with Ba6 were good (a6 must not ne played to have a free a6 square).
f5 has the same type of goal: after f5, if White plays d3 then Black can play b5 in one move.
  

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Klick
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Re: The "Anti-French" 2.Qe2
Reply #21 - 11/12/05 at 07:33:13
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Seems like Tolotos is an inactive user. His last post was posted over a year ago.

What do you make of 10...Qd7 as opposed to 10...a6 Dom?
  

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dom
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Re: The "Anti-French" 2.Qe2
Reply #20 - 11/12/05 at 06:54:46
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I prefer 12...cxd4 (12...b4 is Fedorov-Yanderimov, St Petersburg 1997 ; in Ulibin-Ivanov,Krasnoyarsk 2005, NCO gives 10...a6!? and 11.Nc2 b5 12.d4 cxd4 transposes).

[Event "Tilburg Fontys"]
[Site "Tilburg"]
[Date "1997.09.27"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Onischuk,Alexander"]
[Black "Shaked,Tal"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "C00"]
1.e4 e6 2.Qe2 c5 3.g3 Nc6 4.c3 g6 5.Bg2 Bg7 6.f4 Nge7 7.Nf3 d6 8.0-0 0-0
9.Na3 Rb8 10.Kh1 a6 11.Nc2 b5 12.d4 cxd4 13.cxd4 b4 14.b3 a5 15.Bb2 Qb6 16.Rfc1 Ba6
17.Qd1 d5 18.e5 Rfc8 19.Ne3 a4 20.Rc2 a3 21.Bc1 Na7 22.Rxc8+ Rxc8 23.Bd2 Nec6 24.Nc2 Bf8
25.g4 Bd3 26.Nce1 Be4 27.Be3 Nb5 28.Qd2 Nc3 29.Kg1 Na7 30.Bf1 Nab5 31.Qf2 Bb1 32.Qh4 Nd1
33.Bxb5 Qxb5 34.Bd2 Be4 35.Ng5 h6 36.Nxe4 dxe4 37.Rxd1 Qe2 38.Rc1 Rxc1 39.Bxc1 Qxa2 40.f5 exf5
41.gxf5 Qb1 42.fxg6 fxg6 43.Qf4 g5 44.Qd2 e3 45.Qc2 a2 46.Qc4+ Kg7 47.Qc7+ Kh8 48.Qc8 a1=Q
1/2

I have recorded Shaked Tal's analysis for this game, but I dont know where I found it. Analysis gives: 15.Bb2?! and the alternative 15.Be3 d5 16.e5 Qb6 is unclear.

Thanks Tolotos for the Arakhamia move 11.Rd1. Do you know another game with this move ?
  

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castlerock
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Re: The "Anti-French" 2.Qe2
Reply #19 - 11/12/05 at 04:12:43
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My point is that black`s 14th obviously is a mistake and that he should play 14...d5 15.e5 and now 15...Rb6 .


Lol. Saving grace is that I feel 14...Rd6 is an obvious move and is understandable when played. It happens even to an expert in French like Ivanov. This, imho is the lesson to be learnt even in chess. Distrust the obvious?
  

CastleRock
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Klick
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Re: The "Anti-French" 2.Qe2
Reply #18 - 11/12/05 at 03:56:47
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Castlerock; your game is the same as has been posted 2 times earlier in this thread, including mine. Sad

My point is that black`s 14th obviously is a mistake and that he should play 14...d5 15.e5 and now 15...Rb6 instead, when it is not clear that white is better at all. See how play unfolds in the 2nd game I gave: Moro-Bareev.
  

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castlerock
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Re: The "Anti-French" 2.Qe2
Reply #17 - 11/11/05 at 21:40:13
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[quote author=Klick link=board=2-French;num=1077642864;start=0#16 date=11/11/05 at 15:52:50]
10...a6 spends a tempo on pushing b5, so I found 10....Qd7 interesting as it is a useful move and after 11.Nc2 black gets to push b5 "free of charge".

Yes. Further 10...Qd7 is a useful move to complete development and x-ray support b5. ...Ba6 is always a threat.

Here is a very instructive loss from Ivanov.

Ulibin,M (2558) - Ivanov,S (2556) [C00]
RUS-ch 56th Krasnoyarsk (9), 12.09.2003

1.e4 e6 2.Qe2 c5 3.g3 Nc6 4.Bg2 g6 5.c3 Bg7 6.f4 Nge7 7.Nf3 d6 8.0-0 0-0 9.Kh1 Rb8 10.Na3 Qd7 11.Nc2 b5 12.d4 cxd4 13.cxd4 b4 14.Rd1 Rb6 15.d5 Ba6 16.Qe1 exd5 17.exd5 Na5 18.Nxb4 Bc4 19.Be3 Rb5 20.a4 Rbb8 21.Bd4 Bb3 22.Bxg7 Kxg7 23.Rd3 Rfe8 24.Na6 Nxd5 25.Qxa5 Rb6 26.Nd2 Ne3 27.Qc3+ 1-0

It is very instructive. Look at how a seemingly obvious move like 14...Rb6 turns out to be a major error. Cry
  

CastleRock
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Klick
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Re: The "Anti-French" 2.Qe2
Reply #16 - 11/11/05 at 15:52:50
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Although some interesting replies here, I believe that none of them addresses the main part of Toloto`s initial posting which concerns the Chigorin with the interesting plan of Na3-c2 to push d2-d4. At the same time this hinders temporarily b7-b5.

This is the central position in question:


Here Black has tried both 10...a6, 10...Qd7, 10...f5(Barrev played this) and 10...d5

10...a6 spends a tempo on pushing b5, so I found 10....Qd7 interesting as it is a useful move and after 11.Nc2 black gets to push b5 "free of charge".

The game Ulibin-Ivanov followed this idea and the position looks ok for Black.  But 14...d5 15.e5 and first now 15...Rb6 planning Ba6 is my suggestion as an improvement for Black.

[Event "RUS-ch 56th"]
[Site "Krasnoyarsk"]
[Date "2003.09.03"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Ulibin,Mikhail"]
[Black "Ivanov,Sergey"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C00"]
1.e4 e6 2.Qe2 c5 3.g3 Nc6 4.Bg2 g6 5.c3 Bg7 6.f4 Nge7 7.Nf3 d6 8.0-0 0-0 9.Kh1 Rb8 10.Na3 Qd7 11.Nc2 b5 12.d4 cxd4 13.cxd4 b4 14.Rd1 Rb6 15.d5 Ba6 16.Qe1 exd5 17.exd5 Na5 18.Nxb4 Bc4 19.Be3 Rb5 20.a4 Rbb8 21.Bd4 Bb3 22.Bxg7 Kxg7 23.Rd3 Rfe8 24.Na6 Nxd5 
25.Qxa5 Rb6 26.Nd2 Ne3 27.Qc3+  1-0


After writing this I discovered the following game with play similar to what I suggest above:

[Event "?"]
[Site "Elista ch-RUS KO"]
[Date "1997.??.??"]
[White "Morozevich,Alexander"]
[Black "Bareev,Evgeny"]
[Round "4.1"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C00"]

1. e4 e6 2. Qe2 c5 3. g3 Nc6 4. c3 g6 5. Bg2
Bg7 6. f4 Nge7 7. Nf3 d6 8. O-O O-O 9. Na3
Rb8 10. Kh1 Qd7 11. d4 cxd4 12. cxd4 d5 13. e5
b5 14. Be3 b4 15. Nb1 Rb6 16. Rc1 Ba6 17. Qe1
Na5 18. Nbd2 Rc8 19. Nb3 Nxb3 20. axb3 Rxc1 21. Bxc1
Bd3 22. Bd2 Qb7 23. g4 Be4 24. Ng5 Bxg2+ 25. Kxg2
Rc6 26. Nf3 Bf8 27. Qe2 Qb6 28. Be3 Qc7 29. Ne1
Nc8 30. Qf3 Qb7 31. Qf1 Qb6 32. Kh1 Ne7 33. Nd3
Rc7 34. Nc5 Nc6 35. f5 Bxc5 36. dxc5 Qb7 37. Bf4
Ne7 38. fxe6 fxe6 39. Bh6 d4+ 40. Kg1 Qc8 41. Qf3
g5 42. Rf1 Ng6 43. Qf6 d3 44. Bxg5 Qe8 45. Bd2
a5 46. h4 Rf7 47. Qg5 Rxf1+ 48. Kxf1 Qa8 49. Kf2
Qf8+ 50. Kg2 Qxc5 51. h5 Qd5+ 52. Kf2 Qd4+ 53. Kf3
Qd5+ 54. Kf2 Qd4+ 55. Qe3 Qxe3+ 56. Kxe3 Nxe5 57. g5
a4 58. bxa4 Nc4+ 59. Kxd3 Nxb2+ 60. Kc2 1/2-1/2

  

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castlerock
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Re: The "Anti-French" 2.Qe2
Reply #15 - 11/09/05 at 01:44:42
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Here is the right thread. BK - cut and paste your post here so that people interested can take it from there.

Look, what boredom at work can do to the forum! Wink
  

CastleRock
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Re: The "Anti-French" 2.Qe2
Reply #14 - 02/22/05 at 06:38:29
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Quote:
After 1.e4 e6 2.Qe2 e5 I prefer 3.f4.The queen is misplaced on Qe2,but she has a good place on f2!

[Event "Soest op"]
[Site "Soest"]
[Date "1996.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Rytshagov,Mikhail"]
[Black "Van Brussel,A"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C00"]
1.e4 e6 2.Qe2 e5 3.f4 d6 4.Qf2 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Bb5 Bd7 7.Nf3 Be7 8.d3 exf4 9.Bxf4 a6 10.Ba4 b5 11.Bb3 Na5 12.0-0 Nxb3 13.axb3 Be6 14.Nd4 Bd7 15.Bg5 c5 16.Nf5 Bxf5 17.Qxf5 0-0 18.Kh1 Nd7 19.Bxe7 Qxe7 20.Nd5 Qd8 21.b4 Nb6 22.bxc5 dxc5 23.Nf4 c4 24.Rf3 Qc8 25.Qh5 Qc6 26.Raf1 cxd3 27.cxd3 Rac8 28.Rh3 h6 29.Rg3 Nd7 30.Qg4 Qf6 31.Qxd7  1-0

[Event "El Sauzal op"]
[Site "El Sauzal"]
[Date "2003.11.??"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Glavina Rossi,Pablo"]
[Black "De la Cruz Sanchez,C Gustavo"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C00"]
1.e4 e6 2.Qe2 e5 3.f4 d6 4.Qf2 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Bb5 Bd7 7.d3 a6 8.Ba4 b5 9.Bb3 Na5 10.Nf3 Nxb3 11.axb3 exf4 12.Bxf4 Be7 13.0-0 0-0 14.Kh1 Nh5 15.Be3 f5 16.e5 f4
17.Bd2 Bc6 18.Nd4 Bb7 19.Ne6 Qd7 20.Nxf8 Rxf8 21.exd6 Bh4 22.Qxh4  1-0

OK,3...d6 isn´t best! I think 3...exf4 is better.

I quite disagree. I think that black's 5th is inaccurate and he should play 5... Be7 and if then 6 Bc4 Ng4 followed by 0-0, Nc6 and Be6. If 6 Nf3 then taking on f4 seems excellent to me. And if 6fxe4 then Ng4 and white's position looks a bit emberassing to me.

All in all I think the queen is more of a nuisance as white needs to spend a couple of moves keeping it out of harm's way.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Bruce
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Re: The "Anti-French" 2.Qe2
Reply #13 - 02/21/05 at 20:59:59
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After 1.e4 e6 2.Qe2 e5... well...
first off id say that white has already driven black into open game teritory, something white would enjoy having played an anti-french.

looked to me like a temp more, but queen does block the bishop and seems misplaced. After 1.e4 e6 2.Qe2 e5 i wouldnt play f4 myself, since i dunno KG at all. so then what as white should i do....
  
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hicetnunc
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Re: The "Anti-French" 2.Qe2
Reply #12 - 02/07/05 at 17:39:08
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Quote:
Posted by: TomR
I think Qe2 is best answered by 2...c5 although e5 and Nf6!? I believe both deserve attention.
As a French player I would be more worried about 1.e4 e6 2.d3 d5 3.Qe2 as I think this cuts out some of Blacks options. 


What is the advantage of the 2.d3/3.Qe2 move order over 2.Qe2 ? I mean, if black is used to answer KIA with a sicilian set-up, can't he play 2.d3 c5 anyway ?Meanwhile, by playing 2.d3/3.Qe2, white loses the possibility of playing c3/d4 against c5/d6/g6. Or am I missing something ?
  

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