Thanks for your reply SF:

With 10...Qd7 Black develops his queen off the backrank. This seems very sensible to me, as 10...a6 can turn out to be a wasted tempo and additionally might take away a good square for the bishop.The c-file is likely to be opened so I don`t think it will be very well placed on c7. As Castlerock points out: when the Na3-knight moves black gets to play b5.  After 10...Qd7 white must decide what to do to complete development: 11.d4 is not possible, so should he play 11.Nc2 to enforce it but then allow black what he wants: 11...b5? White must do something and 11.d3 once again allows 11...b5. The alternative is 11.Rd1 to enforce d4 without allowing b5, but then 11...d5 12.d4 cxd 13.cxd dxe looks interesting. As I`ve mentioned a number of times; in the Ulibin-Ivanov game black loses not because of 10...Qd7, but because of mistakes starting with 14...Rb6

I agree that 10...f5 looks interesting and also deserves attention.

To me it seems like Black equalises without much trouble in these lines. Asking about winning-chances is always legitimate, but equalising in straightforward manner is a good start! Anyway, your question made me think a bit and I came up with the following as an alternative to take advantage of white`s move-order 1.e4 e6 2.Qe2 c5 3.g3 Nc6 4.c3 d5!, which looks quite promising.

Btw, although I really dislike 10...a6, I don't see that 10...Qd7 is as useful as you suggest.  In one game, Black never moved his queen again and lost in the middlegame (the oft-quoted Ulibin-Ivanov game) and in another, Black brings the Q to b7, which may be an improvement.  Even so, I am looking for alternatives to both (again 10...f5!? becomes more appealing).  10...Qc7 would be nice if White were forced to play 11.Nc2?? but 11.Nb5 looks like it's at least a draw for White and probably better than that.

Thanks Klick,...
I have not yet analysed Qd7, only entered the moves of previous games of the thread...At current time, I don't think Black needs to use a tempo to move the queen, since Black counterplay, in such a line, is to use the b-file to open one file. In fact, it will be useful if the plan with Ba6 were good (a6 must not ne played to have a free a6 square).
f5 has the same type of goal: after f5, if White plays d3 then Black can play b5 in one move.

I prefer 12...cxd4 (12...b4 is Fedorov-Yanderimov, St Petersburg 1997 ; in Ulibin-Ivanov,Krasnoyarsk 2005, NCO gives 10...a6!? and 11.Nc2 b5 12.d4 cxd4 transposes).

[Event "Tilburg Fontys"]
[Site "Tilburg"]
[Date "1997.09.27"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Onischuk,Alexander"]
[Black "Shaked,Tal"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "C00"]
1.e4 e6 2.Qe2 c5 3.g3 Nc6 4.c3 g6 5.Bg2 Bg7 6.f4 Nge7 7.Nf3 d6 8.0-0 0-0
9.Na3 Rb8 10.Kh1 a6 11.Nc2 b5 12.d4 cxd4 13.cxd4 b4 14.b3 a5 15.Bb2 Qb6 16.Rfc1 Ba6
17.Qd1 d5 18.e5 Rfc8 19.Ne3 a4 20.Rc2 a3 21.Bc1 Na7 22.Rxc8+ Rxc8 23.Bd2 Nec6 24.Nc2 Bf8
25.g4 Bd3 26.Nce1 Be4 27.Be3 Nb5 28.Qd2 Nc3 29.Kg1 Na7 30.Bf1 Nab5 31.Qf2 Bb1 32.Qh4 Nd1
33.Bxb5 Qxb5 34.Bd2 Be4 35.Ng5 h6 36.Nxe4 dxe4 37.Rxd1 Qe2 38.Rc1 Rxc1 39.Bxc1 Qxa2 40.f5 exf5
41.gxf5 Qb1 42.fxg6 fxg6 43.Qf4 g5 44.Qd2 e3 45.Qc2 a2 46.Qc4+ Kg7 47.Qc7+ Kh8 48.Qc8 a1=Q
1/2

I have recorded Shaked Tal's analysis for this game, but I dont know where I found it. Analysis gives: 15.Bb2?! and the alternative 15.Be3 d5 16.e5 Qb6 is unclear.

Thanks Tolotos for the Arakhamia move 11.Rd1. Do you know another game with this move ?

Castlerock; your game is the same as has been posted 2 times earlier in this thread, including mine.

My point is that black`s 14th obviously is a mistake and that he should play 14...d5 15.e5 and now 15...Rb6 instead, when it is not clear that white is better at all. See how play unfolds in the 2nd game I gave: Moro-Bareev.

Although some interesting replies here, I believe that none of them addresses the main part of Toloto`s initial posting which concerns the Chigorin with the interesting plan of Na3-c2 to push d2-d4. At the same time this hinders temporarily b7-b5.



Here Black has tried both 10...a6, 10...Qd7, 10...f5(Barrev played this) and 10...d5

10...a6 spends a tempo on pushing b5, so I found 10....Qd7 interesting as it is a useful move and after 11.Nc2 black gets to push b5 "free of charge".

The game Ulibin-Ivanov followed this idea and the position looks ok for Black.  But 14...d5 15.e5 and first now 15...Rb6 planning Ba6 is my suggestion as an improvement for Black.

[Event "RUS-ch 56th"]
[Site "Krasnoyarsk"]
[Date "2003.09.03"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Ulibin,Mikhail"]
[Black "Ivanov,Sergey"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C00"]
1.e4 e6 2.Qe2 c5 3.g3 Nc6 4.Bg2 g6 5.c3 Bg7 6.f4 Nge7 7.Nf3 d6 8.0-0 0-0 9.Kh1 Rb8 10.Na3 Qd7 11.Nc2 b5 12.d4 cxd4 13.cxd4 b4 14.Rd1 Rb6 15.d5 Ba6 16.Qe1 exd5 17.exd5 Na5 18.Nxb4 Bc4 19.Be3 Rb5 20.a4 Rbb8 21.Bd4 Bb3 22.Bxg7 Kxg7 23.Rd3 Rfe8 24.Na6 Nxd5 
25.Qxa5 Rb6 26.Nd2 Ne3 27.Qc3+  1-0


After writing this I discovered the following game with play similar to what I suggest above:

[Event "?"]
[Site "Elista ch-RUS KO"]
[Date "1997.??.??"]
[White "Morozevich,Alexander"]
[Black "Bareev,Evgeny"]
[Round "4.1"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C00"]

1. e4 e6 2. Qe2 c5 3. g3 Nc6 4. c3 g6 5. Bg2
Bg7 6. f4 Nge7 7. Nf3 d6 8. O-O O-O 9. Na3
Rb8 10. Kh1 Qd7 11. d4 cxd4 12. cxd4 d5 13. e5
b5 14. Be3 b4 15. Nb1 Rb6 16. Rc1 Ba6 17. Qe1
Na5 18. Nbd2 Rc8 19. Nb3 Nxb3 20. axb3 Rxc1 21. Bxc1
Bd3 22. Bd2 Qb7 23. g4 Be4 24. Ng5 Bxg2+ 25. Kxg2
Rc6 26. Nf3 Bf8 27. Qe2 Qb6 28. Be3 Qc7 29. Ne1
Nc8 30. Qf3 Qb7 31. Qf1 Qb6 32. Kh1 Ne7 33. Nd3
Rc7 34. Nc5 Nc6 35. f5 Bxc5 36. dxc5 Qb7 37. Bf4
Ne7 38. fxe6 fxe6 39. Bh6 d4+ 40. Kg1 Qc8 41. Qf3
g5 42. Rf1 Ng6 43. Qf6 d3 44. Bxg5 Qe8 45. Bd2
a5 46. h4 Rf7 47. Qg5 Rxf1+ 48. Kxf1 Qa8 49. Kf2
Qf8+ 50. Kg2 Qxc5 51. h5 Qd5+ 52. Kf2 Qd4+ 53. Kf3
Qd5+ 54. Kf2 Qd4+ 55. Qe3 Qxe3+ 56. Kxe3 Nxe5 57. g5
a4 58. bxa4 Nc4+ 59. Kxd3 Nxb2+ 60. Kc2 1/2-1/2

Quote:

I quite disagree. I think that black's 5th is inaccurate and he should play 5... Be7 and if then 6 Bc4 Ng4 followed by 0-0, Nc6 and Be6. If 6 Nf3 then taking on f4 seems excellent to me. And if 6fxe4 then Ng4 and white's position looks a bit emberassing to me.

All in all I think the queen is more of a nuisance as white needs to spend a couple of moves keeping it out of harm's way.

Quote:


What is the advantage of the 2.d3/3.Qe2 move order over 2.Qe2 ? I mean, if black is used to answer KIA with a sicilian set-up, can't he play 2.d3 c5 anyway ?Meanwhile, by playing 2.d3/3.Qe2, white loses the possibility of playing c3/d4 against c5/d6/g6. Or am I missing something ?